Clubs, clubs and clubs

[plaur]

[hv=d=n&s=sa8542haj54dacj96]133|100|1♣ - 1♠

2♣ - 2♥

3♣ - ?[/hv]

 

What has opener shown? What is the range of hands she may have? What to bid?

[Echognome]

4♣... about time I showed my support.

[pbleighton]

Pd should have 7 clubs, or an excellent 6 card suit, and less than 16 (probably less than 15) hcp.

 

I bid 5C.

 

Peter

[mike777]

I would have used rkc over 2clubs

 

 

4d kickback if allowed...over 2 clubs.

[firmit]

It should be game somewhere - so why not 3♦?

 

After my 3♦, the only negative bid "allowed", and probably the only one I would not make a slamtry with, would be 5♣.... All other bids, show some kind of fit - 3card hearts,2cards spade, diamond stopper or alike. Hence, my next bid would be 4♣. Then it is up to him to bid 5♣, cue-bid or rckb.

[pclayton]

4♣ or 4♦. Not difficult to construct minimum hands that produce 13 tricks.

[xx1943]

It should be game somewhere - so why not 3♦?

 

After my 3♦, the only negative bid "allowed", and probably the only one I would not make a slamtry with, would be 5♣.... All other bids, show some kind of fit - 3card hearts,2cards spade, diamond stopper or alike. Hence, my next bid would be 4♣. Then it is up to him to bid 5♣, cue-bid or rckb.

excellent

[Finch]

Partner has 6+ clubs, a minimum hand, probably a singleton spade (or at least 5 more clubs than spades), no diamond stop.

 

Your 2H bid is normally played as forcing. Over that, partner didn't bid 2S (simple preference and usually a doubleton), didn't bid 2NT (no diamond stop) and didn't raise hearts. His most likely distributions are 1336 with only low diamonds, 1237, 2227.... with six clubs and a doubleton spade his bid should have been simply (non-forcing) preference to spades.

 

If partner has a singleton spade we can be making a very large number of tricks here. I would simply make a forcing raise to 4C and see what partner can cue bid. If partner has, say, x Kx xxx AKxxxxx we might be able to cue our way to the grand, but it will be very difficult to find out whether he has xx Kx Qx AKxxxxx instead, when grand is well under 50% (heart finesse + clubs not 3-0).

 

If I had to guess the final contract right now, it would be 6C.

[plaur]

Thank you all!

Can you give me good arguments why 4♣ now is forcing and slammish?

2♥ is not more than invit and 3♣ was not forcing. An intermediate could easily be unsecure about 4♣ and guess it as invitational?

 

my hand was:

Kx

K

xxx

AK10xxxxx

Do you agree my bidding(1♣, 2♣, 3♣)?

We didnt get to grand but played a dangerous 3NT for a small gain (520/440)

[Echognome]

Good rule of thumb for an intermediate player is to never play 4m as INV in an uncontested auction. It might be preemptive (such as opening 4♣ or raising partner's 1♣ opening), but never try to stop on a dime in 4♣. I'm sure there are plenty of hands where it's right, but the circumstances around those usually involved trying for 3N and finding you are missing a stopper. Most people just bash out 3N and hope they get a favorable lead.

[han]

I agree with Frances' reasoning for 4♣, and I agree with Matt's rule of thumb.

[inquiry]

It should be game somewhere - so why not 3♦?

 

After my 3♦, the only negative bid "allowed", and probably the only one I would not make a slamtry with, would be 5♣.... All other bids, show some kind of fit - 3card hearts,2cards spade, diamond stopper or alike. Hence, my next bid would be 4♣. Then it is up to him to bid 5♣, cue-bid or rckb.

excellent

Gack... I disagree. 3♦ is confusing the auction. You have clubs support, let partner know that by simply raising clubs. What if the auction goes...

 

1C-1S-2C-2H-3C-3D-3H-4C...

 

is this 4♣ a give up (a 4-3 heart fit not good enough, so looking at a 6-1 or 6-2 club fit? A club raise here is simply completing your distributional picture. I agree with those who play a 4♣ raise as forcing, but if you do not, then jump to game.

 

Note how nice the club raise describes your distribution (bid three suit naturally, how many do you have in the fourth?). You partner with kings in the majors, great clubs, and three small clubs will be clued into the slam possibility.

 

Here is an odd concept that will help with most bidding situations like this. Support-with-support. You will be surprised how that simple rule simplifies many auctions. :P

[Finch]

Thank you all!

Can you give me good arguments why 4♣ now is forcing and slammish?

2♥ is not more than invit and 3♣ was not forcing. An intermediate could easily be unsecure about 4♣ and guess it as invitational?

 

my hand was:

Kx

K

xxx

AK10xxxxx

Do you agree my bidding(1♣, 2♣, 3♣)?

We didnt get to grand but played a dangerous 3NT for a small gain (520/440)

I agree an intermediate could easily be insecure about 4C. Once you've scored up a few +190s you soon get the hang of these auctions!

 

I agree with the 1C opening.

I agree with the 2C rebid.

 

Over 2H, you have actually have too good a hand for 3C. This way to see this is to think about what you have shown so far, and what you have. The worst hand you can have is a minimum opening bid with six clubs, nothing in spades, no diamond stop. A hand such as x Kxx Jxx AKJxxx (and it could even be weaker depending on your opening style). Compare that hand to the hand you actually held which has

 

- a 7th club

- Kx in partner's first bid suit

- the singleton king which you probably downgraded initially now looks to be working well in partner's second suit

- No queens or jacks

 

Remember you have already shown a minimum: in that context you have a very good hand. 3C was non-forcing, and you were too strong to bid it.

 

As for what the right call is over 2H, that's a good question and I bet a poll on BBO would get a range of different replies. The two obvious options are 3D (obviously game forcing but murky as to final contract) or 4C. Personally I would consider that my Kx in spades is strong enough support that I am prepared to give up on playing 3NT. (If partner bids 4M over 4C we'll play in 4S)

 

A possible auction would go

 

1C - 1S

2C - 2H

4C - 4D*

4S** - 4NT***

5H**** - 7C

 

*cue bid for clubs. Responder can't bid 4NT over 4C, even if he wanted to, because I think it should be natural.

** Personally I woudl promise the HA to bid 4H here, so I show the good spade cards

*** RKCB for clubs

**** 5H = 2 key cards. I wouldn't show the Queen of clubs in addition, because the 4C bid implied either 7 clubs or the AKQ

7C = see above about the 4C bid

 

Now, this auction is much easier on seeing both hands: I would be pleased to get to 7C at the table and expect a swing in; but I would expect never to finish below 6C.

[Apollo81]

[hv=d=n&s=sa8542haj54dacj96]133|100|1♣ - 1♠

2♣ - 2♥

3♣ - ?[/hv]

 

What has opener shown? What is the range of hands she may have? What to bid?

Opener has shown 7+♣ or only 6♣ with no diamond stopper and no biddable major holding. Typical hands might include xx Qx xxx AKQJxx or x Kx Jxx AKxxxxx

 

Slam seems like a favorite to make, even though pard could have something like Qx Jx xxx AKQJxx. There are two ways to get there. One is to take charge by bidding RKC yourself. I would do this if I thought there was any chance partner might pass 4♣.

 

However, opposite a good player 4♣ is a better call than 4♦. If you can get partner to bid RKC, you can easily describe all of your high cards, and partner should know your shape from the bidding. This is better than trying to figure out partner's hand, which is much less well known than yours on this auction. If partner just bids 5♣ over your 4♣, I would raise to 6♣.

 

A good advanced-player rule about 4m is that it is NF when there has been a failed stopper investigation. For instance, 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♥-3♣-3♦-3♥-4♣ is not forcing. However, direct raises to 4m like this one are forcing since there has been no attempt to get to 3NT. This obviously doesn't apply to auctions like 1M-1NT-2m-4m where slam is not a concern.

[firmit]

Gack... I disagree. 3♦ is confusing the auction. You have clubs support, let partner know that by simply raising clubs. What if the auction goes...

 

1C-1S-2C-2H-3C-3D-3H-4C...

 

is this 4♣ a give up (a 4-3 heart fit not good enough, so looking at a 6-1 or 6-2 club fit? A club raise here is simply completing  your distributional picture. I agree with those who play a 4♣ raise as forcing, but if you do not, then jump to game.

3♦ is obviously game-forcing ( though the meaning of 3♦ is not yet clearified to partner ) - so how is 4♣ a give-up?

 

I like slow approaches, so in the given auction 3♦ should be considered a cue-bid by partner if I make a slam-try-bid with 4♣ later on in the auction. But as I make the 3♦-bid, all he has to worry about, is making the right respons.

 

Therefor, In my opinion

1♣-1♠-2♣-2♥-3♣-3♦-3♥-4♣

would be slam-try with 3♦ as cue-bid, expecting partner to start with agreed-upon cue-bidding sequence. This mainly because I am entitled to pass any bid opener makes after 3♦.

 

However - I won't debate the 4♣-bid directly after 3♣, as nothing but a slam-try.

[cherdano]

I would have used rkc over 2clubs

 

4d kickback if allowed...over 2 clubs.

If I were emperor, I would introduce the following rule: All non-competitive double jumps to 4N show a solid 7-card suit with exactly Ax in all unbid suits (unless they are raising a natural NT bid). RKCB abusers will be punished with 2 years at a poker table.

(Felonies such as kickback and minorwood will lead to substantially higher penalties.)

 

Do you really want to play slam opposite Qx Qxx KJx KQxxxx? Ok, thats a minimum with wastage, so how about Kx xxx xx AKQxxx? Do you know whether to bid a grand after partner shows all keys? If not, don't you think there is a better chance for that after you have shown your shape a little? (I admit, that one will still be hard then, but at least there is a chance...)

 

Arend

[inquiry]

Gack... I disagree. 3♦ is confusing the auction. You have clubs support, let partner know that by simply raising clubs. What if the auction goes...

 

1C-1S-2C-2H-3C-3D-3H-4C...

 

is this 4♣ a give up (a 4-3 heart fit not good enough, so looking at a 6-1 or 6-2 club fit? A club raise here is simply completing  your distributional picture. I agree with those who play a 4♣ raise as forcing, but if you do not, then jump to game.

3♦ is obviously game-forcing ( though the meaning of 3♦ is not yet clearified to partner ) - so how is 4♣ a give-up?

 

I like slow approaches, so in the given auction 3♦ should be considered a cue-bid by partner if I make a slam-try-bid with 4♣ later on in the auction. But as I make the 3♦-bid, all he has to worry about, is making the right respons.

 

Therefor, In my opinion

1♣-1♠-2♣-2♥-3♣-3♦-3♥-4♣

would be slam-try with 3♦ as cue-bid, expecting partner to start with agreed-upon cue-bidding sequence. This mainly because I am entitled to pass any bid opener makes after 3♦.

 

However - I won't debate the 4♣-bid directly after 3♣, as nothing but a slam-try.

Lets give responder three hands....

 

AQxxx Axxx Jxx J

AQxxx Axxx Jx Jx

AKxxx AQxx Jxx x

 

What do you bid over 3♣? Is this a trivial question? In each case, think the answer is 3♦.

 

On the first hand (AQxxx Axxx Jxx J) 3NT roll on opener holding, x Qxx Qx AKQxxxx. How are you going to bid this hand over 3C if not 3♦ looking for a partial diamond stopper perhaps.

 

Or what if responder held, AQxxx Axxx Jx Jx himself, and opener had xx xx Qx AKQJxxx. Or even if responder held, AKxxx AQxx Jxx x and opener held, Q Kx xxx AKQJTxx, 3NT has four or more diamond losers (maybe 3NT is best and hope for 4-3 or blcoked suit), and 5C is off the first three diamond tricks. This is what most 3♦ bids should look like, a gentle probe for 3NT opposite a partial stopper. IF such partial stopper doesn't exist, and no spade or real heart fit is found, where are you going to end up? In the club suit your partner has bid and then rebid twice.

[cherdano]

Ben, of course there are hands where you want to stop in 4♣, but I would agree with firmit that without discussion, 3♦ is game forcing (and for me personally, after discussion it is GF, too :) ).

[inquiry]

Ben, of course there are hands where you want to stop in 4♣, but I would agree with firmit that without discussion, 3♦ is game forcing (and for me personally, after discussion it is GF, too :) ).

But there is a difference between game forcing and slam invite. After 3♦ obstensively looking for a diamond stopper, how do you get into 6♣ with opener having xxx or xx in diamonds? You simply can not, out of fear of two losing diamonds

[plaur]

Over 2H, you have actually have too good a hand for 3C.

...

Remember you have already shown a minimum: in that context you have a very good hand.  3C was non-forcing, and you were too strong to bid it.

Thank you, very helpfull. The hand actually hand single spade. I was typing from memory at work. I see that all my HCP are working now and no Q's or J's. My hand has improved. I knew that much at the table :) I just didnt think of 4♣. Im still not sure I really want to bid 4♣ now. 4♠ is not really an escape with single ♠.

 

The sequence

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♥

is also beeing discussed in another thread. In my mind the 2♥ bidder does not need a lot for that bid. 2♣ could be on 5, since with 4-5 minors we always open ♣ and dislike bidding 1NT on 2245 or 1345.

 

K

K6

863

AK108532

[fred]

As far as I am concerned the only calls worthy of consideration are 4C and 6C. I personally prefer 6C because, in my view, the only advantage of 4C is that this call may facilitate an auction whereby you can bid 7C intelligently. However, this is not very likely. I think there is at least as much chance that a slow auction will help the opponents to find the best opening lead against 6C (if one exists).

 

I think that it is a fantasy to hope the bidding 4C will give you the information you need to stay out of a bad 6C.

 

I think that bidding 3D is not necessary (because 4C is clearly forcing) and that bids like 3D tend to result in confusion. The only advantage I see in bidding 3D is that there is a reasonable chance that this call will get doubled (thereby ensuring an opening lead against 6C that rates to be favorable).

 

Even if 4NT is clearly RKCB in your partnership (it would not be in mine) I think this is a poor choice (because you are going to bid 6C regardless of the response that you get - it is not possible that you are missing 2 keycards).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

Ditto, Fred.

 

I'd add in that any fancy cuebidding sequence after this auction will get muddled beyond belief, will add little, and will convince partner that you do not have A-A-A-, plus a stiff and J10x of trumps. I cannot imagine an auction to show this hand, nor any auction to find specifically what you need on the side.