Competitive Auction

[jchiu]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=sk9764hq4dak9ckj9]133|100|Scoring: IMP

West North East You

Pass Pass 1♣ 1N

2♣ 2♦ 3♣ Pass

Pass Double Pass ??[/hv]

 

2♦ is Lebensohl, showing a less-than-invitational hand with at least five diamonds.

[Apollo81]

What would double of 2♣ have been?

[the hog]

Well if pd has a less than invit hand, I don't see the problem. Pd doesn't think 3NT can make, so isn't 3D obvious? 3S is insane btw at Imps and somewhat crazy at MPs.

[SoTired]

partner has some convertable values (about 6 hcp). Does not want to sell out to 3C, but asking if you want to convert now that you know, advancer is not broke. Penalty seems risky at IMPs, less so at MP. With such nice diam, I vote for 3D.

[bid_em_up]

I would have bid 3D directly over 3C. Since I evidently forgot to, I will bid it now. I cannot be certain that we have enough tricks to beat 3C (althought its tempting to leave the double in).

[whereagles]

Odds that pard is 3352 are huge, but I really feel like leaving the double in..

[awm]

My general experience has been that overcalling 1NT with a five-card major doesn't typically work out very well. This is perhaps strange because opening 1NT with a five-card major has often been successful for me. Perhaps some reasons for this:

 

(1) Opponents are more likely to compete after the 1NT overcall. Overcaller's LHO knows that partner has values, which is generally not so much the case after our 1NT opening. If opponents do compete we're often better off to play in overcaller's major, which becomes hard to find.

 

(2) Opponents are more likely to find a good lead after the opening bid for their side than after a blind 1NT-3NT auction.

 

(3) The 1NT overcall generally works out better with two stoppers in opener's suit, or at the least with four-card length there. The five-card major hand normally has only three cards in opener's suit.

 

(4) We are less likely to have a "high card point" game after the 1NT overcall than after a 1NT opening. In general bidding 1M usually helps to get to our best partial (which is often 2M) and reaching light fitting 4M games, whereas bidding 1NT is better for reaching high-card games and "right-siding" (which is less likely to be an issue when opponents values are mostly in front of the strong hand anyway). Also most people play non-forcing two-over-one bids after a 1M overcall (or transfer responses), making it easier to get to partner's suit than it might be after a 1M opening.

 

(5) A major suit fit is slightly more likely in the 1NT overcall auction because the opponents' opening bid generally denies a five-card holding in overcaller's major (at least in one of their two hands), and often implies length elsewhere.

 

Anyways while I disagree with the 1NT call, I've apparently chosen to treat my spades as a four card suit. I'm not bidding 3♠ now opposite a double which was "cards" and not takeout. At IMP scoring it's an easy 3♦ for me over the double.

[mike777]

I bid 3d but it was not as easy for me as for other posters, I thought this was a good problem.

 

Adam's point of the 1nt bid is very interesting,thanks.

[jtfanclub]

Odds that pard is 3352 are huge, but I really feel like leaving the double in..

Sorry for my confusion...

 

Over 3♣, the pass by me was non-forcing and an X would have been penalty, right?

 

So what did my partner's 3♦ bid show? He's already shown less than invitational with 5 diamonds, so I would think this would show something more than that. Since partner could have passed 2♣, I assume that 'less than invitational' can't be so bad that it would invite a penalty X.

[Echognome]

There are some interesting points to this auction. If we listen to it careful, there are a lot of clues.

 

LHO has raised what could be a 3 card suit. Thus he must have 4 clubs. RHO has re-raised himself. He is not likely to do that unless he has at least 5 clubs. So partner is looking at at most one club.

 

Partner did not transfer to hearts over 1N. Given that he has 5 diamonds, it should be clear that he doesn't have 5 hearts (he's not sitting for 1NT with 55 in the reds). So he has at most four hearts.

 

That leaves him with 8 or more cards in spades and diamonds. Thus, we have a double fit and I think pulling is sensible. At IMPs, 3D caters for partner being 3-6 in the pointies. At MPs, it might be worth the risk to guess that partner is 3=4=5=1, 4=3=5=1, or 3=3=6=1.

[kenrexford]

[hv=n=saxxhaxxdxxxxxxcx&w=sxxhxxxxxdxxcxxxx&e=sqjxhkjxdqjcaqxxx&s=skxxxxhqxdakxckjx]399|300|[/hv]

 

Weird bidding, but LOL!

[jtfanclub]

So the winning bid is 3NT- even if diamonds are 3-1....well, that or pass for 800.

 

I wonder if that's what the X was about.

[cherdano]

That leaves him with 8 or more cards in spades and diamonds. Thus, we have a double fit and I think pulling is sensible. At IMPs, 3D caters for partner being 3-6 in the pointies. At MPs, it might be worth the risk to guess that partner is 3=4=5=1, 4=3=5=1, or 3=3=6=1.

If I were sitting opposite, any 5431 shape would be impossible. I would make a takeout double with that, not bid 2♦ on my queen-high suit.

[inquiry]

I don't know about you, but

 

1) 1NT describe my shape and distribution

2) Partner's 2♦ set trumps for us, so no need for a future takeout double

3) Partner is not doubling on QJ-fifth or sixth of diamonds, this is penalty double and he is thinking he has tricks and those tricks ARE NOT in diamonds

4) I have three very good clubs behind opener

5) Partner is captain. If he had not bid diamonds earlier showing a long suit, then this would be takeout, but here it is penalty.

 

So, well, I pass.

[Echognome]

If I were sitting opposite, any 5431 shape would be impossible. I would make a takeout double with that, not bid 2♦ on my queen-high suit.

I personally don't see how this is superior given that (1) you are playing a weak NT and (2) you are playing IMPs.

 

If you expect a weak NT to be reopening... good luck. If not, then I can overcall at the 2-level with impunity.

 

Aside from that, you often make your biggest gains playing weak NT doubling them at the 2-level.

 

Edit: I mixed up our opening 1NT (weak) with our 1NT overcall (strong). So Arend is right that double for takeout is a fine way to play it. I'll just say that double was penalties, so you'll have to live with that.

 

I don't know about you, but

 

1) 1NT describe my shape and distribution

2) Partner's 2♦ set trumps for us, so no need for a future takeout double

3) Partner is not doubling on QJ-fifth or sixth of diamonds, this is penalty double and he is thinking he has tricks and those tricks ARE NOT in diamonds

4) I have three very good clubs behind opener

5) Partner is captain. If he had not bid diamonds earlier showing a long suit, then this would be takeout, but here it is penalty.

 

So, well, I pass.

 

1) Well other than the fact that you have a 5cM that partner is not expecting, but I agree it's only a slight deviation.

 

2) How does 2♦ "set trumps"? This makes no sense to me. Partner is simply telling you he has length in diamonds and not enough values for game. If the auction had gone:

 

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - Pass

Pass - 2♥ - 2♠ - Pass

 

Would opener have to return to ♦ with 4 (or 5!) spades and only 2 diamonds, because 2♦ sets trumps?

 

3) Partner has no idea what you're looking at, but I agree he would not be doubling on QJ-fifth or sixth and out. He obviously thinks it's our hand and that we have the bullk of the hcp.

 

4) You do have three clubs behind opener... and what does responder have? Your defensive prospects in clubs will depend on awful lot of the location of the ♣Q and of course opponents will not misguess your holding. Alternatively you have 1 or 2 trump tricks and you certainly cannot be sure it's 2! (on the actual deal it was indeed only 1)

 

5) I don't buy this. It's like saying "I opened 1NT, so I make no decisions from here on out." Yes the 1NT overcall limited your hcp and shape. But what about 2♦? Did it not limit partner's hcp and shape? How many clubs do you think partner is looking at over there? I don't know about you, but calling a low-level double "penalties" with a singleton is not exactly my idea of full disclosure. If you want, call it values or cooperative. But penalty... please!

 

So the winning bid is 3NT- even if diamonds are 3-1....well, that or pass for 800.

 

I wonder if that's what the X was about.

 

Kenrexford was making up an imaginary deal that he thinks represents the auction. I see no reason why west would bid on his deal, especially at IMPs and especially if 1♣ didn't promise 4.

[cherdano]

If I were sitting opposite, any 5431 shape would be impossible. I would make a takeout double with that, not bid 2♦ on my queen-high suit.

I personally don't see how this is superior given that (1) you are playing a weak NT and (2) you are playing IMPs.

 

If you expect a weak NT to be reopening... good luck. If not, then I can overcall at the 2-level with impunity. A

side from that, you often make your biggest gains playing weak NT doubling them at the 2-level.

Uhmm.

1. This thread has nothing to do with weak NT.

2. I never claimed that this is superior, just that this shape looks like a takeout double to me, so I would make one. Especially as a 3451-hand that is strong enough to double 3♣ should have enough strength to invite game if it gets a 2♥ response.

 

And btw, yes I would play negative doubles after a weak NT, and yes, also do that at IMPs. I don't know which is superior, so I would play the style I am more comfortable with....

[Echognome]

Uhmm.

1. This thread has nothing to do with weak NT.

2. I never claimed that this is superior, just that this shape looks like a takeout double to me, so I would make one. Especially as a 3451-hand that is strong enough to double 3♣ should have enough strength to invite game if it gets a 2♥ response.

 

And btw, yes I would play negative doubles after a weak NT, and yes, also do that at IMPs. I don't know which is superior, so I would play the style I am more comfortable with....

See my edited post above (you beat me to my correction).

 

I don't know what's superior either, but having played a lot of weak NT, I'd prefer a penalty double. Over a strong NT, my preference is a takeout double.

[000002]

:1c-1n-2c-2d,3c-?

after 3♣, passing by 1nt overcaller intensively drop a hint fit on ♦,i would take a DBL if ♦ only 2 cards;

if i bid 3♦ directly,replacing pass, this 3♦ is good fit and ♣A/K singleness.

 

i decide shift North DBL since 3♣ often 1down,but not easy 2 down .

i don't shift 3♦ ,it often deny 4cards major ,so i advise 3♠ now.

 

what is 3nt selection?imo this is a special hand with ♣ aq and fit ♦ with honor.

 

 

regards 000002

[Finch]

No-one has commented on partner's 2D bid which is a big underbid.

 

By the way, the normal 1S overcall would get you quickly and easily to one of the three making games.

[000002]

No-one has commented on partner's 2D bid which is a big underbid.

why u comment this 2♦ is underbid?

 

 

regards 000002

[inquiry]

1) 1NT describe my shape and distribution

2) Partner's 2D set trumps for us, so no need for a future takeout double

3) Partner is not doubling on QJ-fifth or sixth of diamonds, this is penalty double and he is thinking he has tricks and those tricks ARE NOT in diamonds

4) I have three very good clubs behind opener

5) Partner is captain. If he had not bid diamonds earlier showing a long suit, then this would be takeout, but here it is penalty.

 

So, well, I pass.

 

1) Well other than the fact that you have a 5cM that partner is not expecting, but I agree it's only a slight deviation.

 

2) How does 2♦ "set trumps"? This makes no sense to me. Partner is simply telling you he has length in diamonds and not enough values for game. If the auction had gone:

 

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - Pass

Pass - 2♥ - 2♠ - Pass

 

Would opener have to return to ♦ with 4 (or 5!) spades and only 2 diamonds, because 2♦ sets trumps?

 

In the origianal auction, 2♦ was described as "showing a less-than-invitational hand with at least five diamonds" . Since I have said that I ahve a balanced hand, this sets trumps for our side as much as if partner had bid transfered to 2♥ after an opening 1NT opening bid. He said his hand is too weak to invite and he has long diamonds and wants to play in diamonds. That, is my definition of "setting trumps".

 

3) Partner has no idea what you're looking at, but I agree he would not be doubling on QJ-fifth or sixth and out.  He obviously thinks it's our hand and that we have the bullk of the hcp.

 

Well my statement that it was a "penalty double" might be a bid strong. This is what I think I meant. Partner is showing a hand that wants to compete and he is willing for the final contract to be 3♣X if I think that is wise. But I already knew that. Partner was NOT forced to bid 2♦, so I could have always compteted to 3♦ on my own without the double. With three good clubs, I see no reason not to pass his value showing double. He will have some tricks in the majors. And, once again, after we have found a fit (and setting trumps is finding a fit), doubles are not TAKEOUT.. they can other things, just not takeout.

 

4) You do have three clubs behind opener... and what does responder have?  Your defensive prospects in clubs will depend on awful lot of the location of the ♣Q and of course opponents will not misguess your holding.  Alternatively you have 1 or 2 trump tricks and you certainly cannot be sure it's 2!  (on the actual deal it was indeed only 1) 

 

How much do you expect to be behind me? I have 16, partner is showing 7 to 8, and RHO took a risky free bid. LHO is probably looking at 3 pts maximum here.

 

5) I don't buy this.  It's like saying "I opened 1NT, so I make no decisions from here on out."  Yes the 1NT overcall limited your hcp and shape.  But what about 2♦?  Did it not limit partner's hcp and shape?  How many clubs do you think partner is looking at over there?  I don't know about you, but calling a low-level double "penalties" with a singleton is not exactly my idea of full disclosure.  If you want, call it values or cooperative.  But penalty... please!

 

Well, again it is not takeout. The simple reason the double is not takeout is that after 2♦ (see number 2 above), we have found our "fit". Again, penalty might not be the best choice of words, better might be DSIP (do something intellegent partner), or value showing. Either way, with such good clubs, pass over this double is correct. I of course know partner is not stacked in clubs, given both opponents have bid them, and one of them twice and I hold three good ones.

[Finch]

No-one has commented on partner's 2D bid which is a big underbid.

why u comment this 2♦ is underbid?

 

 

regards 000002

Because if you have 2 aces and a 6-card suit opposite strong NT values you don't usually sign off at the 2-level.

 

I am torn between doubling 2C for takeout (the hand may play extremely well in a Moysian major suit fit), bidding 3D natural and game forcing (OK, a slight overbid) and - if available - bidding 2NT lebensohl then 3D to show an invite with long diamonds.

 

I gave the hand to my regular partner and he doubled saying he'd like to have a second club, but he has loads of defence and a flexible hand. His second choice was just to drive game.

 

We weren't going to get 500 from 3Cx, but we were certainly going to bid game.

[Echognome]

Maybe showing the actual hand will help instead of seeing Ken's fabrication.

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sjt5hk973dqjt43c3&w=sq832ht62d75cq862&e=sahaj85d862cat754&s=sk9764hq4dak9ckj9]399|300|Scoring: IMP

P - P - 1♣ - 1NT

2♣ - 2♦ - 3♣ - P

P - Dbl - All Pass[/hv]

 

T1: ♦A - 5 - Q - 2

T2: ♥Q - 2 - 3 - 5

T3: ♥4 - T - K - A

T4: ♦6 - 9 - 7 - T

T5: ♣3 - 4 - J - Q

 

9 tricks...

[awm]

While the hand wasn't defended the best (it seems like a third heart ruffed will set 3♣ by one trick) I'd rather be in 3♦ on this hand which seems relatively easy to make...

[inquiry]

Maybe showing the actual hand will help instead of seeing Ken's fabrication.

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sjt5hk973dqjt43c3&w=sq832ht62d75cq862&e=sahaj85d862cat754&s=sk9764hq4dak9ckj9]399|300|Scoring: IMP

P - P - 1♣ - 1NT

2♣ - 2♦ - 3♣ - P

P - Dbl - All Pass[/hv]

 

T1: ♦A - 5 - Q - 2

T2: ♥Q - 2 - 3 - 5

T3: ♥4 - T - K - A

T4: ♦6 - 9 - 7 - T

T5: ♣3 - 4 - J - Q

 

9 tricks...

This hand hardly seems possible for North.

 

1) he has a clear double... a double of 2♣. Hand could belong in any of three suits.

 

2) For his "free bid" of 2♦ (sure not forcing, not even invitational), he is weak. And he has nearly no defense stregth to explain his optional double.

 

3) Once again, after 2♦ -- that establish our "fit" so a later double can not be pure takeout (thus can not be this minimum, defensivess wonder).