pbleighton Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 From talkingpointsmemo.com: "But getting our policy in order is also being stymied because the political opponents of the war aren't willing to say that, yes, the policy has failed. Not 'defeated'. To be 'defeated' you need to have some other party 'defeat' you. This is just a failure. But whichever it is, that bogey is being used by the White House to scare off the opposition. It's a failure. There's no recovering it. And the unspeakable reality -- truly unspeakable, apparently -- is that it's not that bad. Horrible for the Iraqis. Horrible for the American dead. Terrible for American prestige, power and honor. All that. But not the end of the world. The future of our civilization isn't at stake. And our physical safety isn't at stake. We'll go on. We are not the brave British standing behind Winston Churchill bucking us up with the confidence that "We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender ..." Those aren't the stakes here. Put it in those words and it's almost comical. President Bush wants us to believe that it is because it serves his grandiosity and direct political interests to believe that, to believe that his political interests -- where everything, history, legacy, etc. is on the line -- are the same as ours as a country. They're not." Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 It always comes down to the lesser evil and the greater good. How great are the evils in question and how great are the good? International Terrorism doesnt hurt as many people as most infectious diseases. Radical Islamic fundamentalism generally affects only those people that adhere to it. Insidious American consumerism......is not all that bad especially if rendered eco-friendly. Pernicious American Jingoism.....is certainly more responsible for the obvious worldly malaise Rapacious American Imperialism........oil fired, religion ruled....this is the true evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BebopKid Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I have no reason to believe that Bush is doing anything differently from what he thinks is in the United States' best interests. He's shown himself to be an honest man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 "I have no reason to believe that Bush is doing anything differently from what he thinks is in the United States' best interests. He's shown himself to be an honest man." wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 "I have no reason to believe that Bush is doing anything differently from what he thinks is in the United States' best interests. He's shown himself to be an honest man." wow I suspect that Bebo's comment was intended as sarcasm. If not, he's so delusional that his comments can be safely ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 lol wow lol wow lol The more I see, the clearer it becomes that the US citizenry has no real idea of how they are perceived around the globe. The ugly american has become the dangerous american. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BebopKid Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Fear not. My earlier comment was not sarcastic. I frankly don't care how I'm perceived. I don't have the grand authority to judge others. Unless they know something I don't, they don't have that authority either. I pray for democracy and freedom for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 "I frankly don't care how I'm perceived. I don't have the grand authority to judge others." Yes you do. You sure judged Bush. You just reached a different verdict than some of us. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 al, i take it you aren't a jingoist... how would you characterize yourself? patriotic, but not to a fault? objective as to nat'l interests, in a subjective sort of way? impartial in an impartial sort of way? i don't know who BebopKid is, but what he said is true... we *don't* have any reason to "... believe that Bush is doing anything differently from what he thinks is in the United States' best interests."Yes you do. You sure judged Bush.actually he didn't judge bush... he simply said he has "... no reason to ..." believe something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 He's shown himself to be an honest man. 1. "Saddam would not let the inspectors in." Bush has now made this claim twice. It came as quite a surprise to the hundreds of U.N. inspectors that were in Iraq in 2003 and were told by the U.S. to get out or get bombed. 2. "We have found WMDs in Iraq." Bush and others have made this claim regarding an ever so dangerous weather tracking truck. I guess the definition of honest in my dictionary is out of date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Implausible denial, the next phase. No need for judgement, just straightforward observation. Time to wake up and smell the oil....or maybe the fumes have already taken effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I have no reason to believe that Bush is doing anything differently from what he thinks is in the United States' best interests. He's shown himself to be an honest man. roflmao This is a joke, right? The man is a criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 If anyone has evidence or proof Bush is a criminal please send it to Nancy P. It seems she does not have this evidence or is hiding it. If Congress has this evidence and they are doing nothing with it....they are just as guilty of a coverup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 If anyone has evidence or proof Bush is a criminal please send it to Nancy P. It seems she does not have this evidence or is hiding it. If Congress has this evidence and they are doing nothing with it....they are just as guilty of a coverup.Are you implying that Bush has not broken the law?Or are you implying Pelosi is not doing her job?Or are you saying Congress's inaction is vindication of Bush?Or are you saying everyone in Congress as well as the president is a crook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 If anyone has evidence or proof Bush is a criminal please send it to Nancy P. It seems she does not have this evidence or is hiding it. If Congress has this evidence and they are doing nothing with it....they are just as guilty of a coverup. Well Mike, repeatedly lying to the citizens of the country of which he is the leader. Is this not a criminal act?Condoning torture, is this not a criminal act?Illegally tapping phones, is this not a criminal act? AS an aside, even my govt is sucked in. Did you guys read in the press that an Australian was refused a seat on a Qantas plane for wearing a t shirt that said, "Bush - world's greatest terrorist". The airline officials said it would offend some passengers. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 As I said does Congress not know this? If they have evidence why do they not begin an impeachment trial?You do not answer my main point, if Congress has the evidence what are they doing with it? If they do not have the evidence and you do, give it to them. If you guys are convinced that Bush is a guilty where is Congress and where is the public outrage demanding Congress to have a trial? I just do not see the Public demanding this of Congress or voting Congress out and someone else in. Is the Public or Congress guilty of a great coverup? You guys seem to say Yes, the American people and Congress are guilty of criminal coverups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Apathy perhaps or a general malaise, or perhaps a feeling that anything that does not directly impinge on you is not worth worrying about. One example is the torturing of David Hicks at Guantanamo Bay. Yes there is evidence that he has and is bieing tortured, but who of you gives a stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BebopKid Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Well Mike, repeatedly lying to the citizens of the country of which he is the leader. Is this not a criminal act?Condoning torture, is this not a criminal act?Illegally tapping phones, is this not a criminal act? There is no evidence Pres. Bush has made any false statements. There has been no condoning of torture. There has been no illegal tapping of phones. When a Christian man stands up for what's right he's a liar, and when a horny pervert commits adultery in a national treasure he's a hero. There is evidence that Iraq at one time had WMD, which Iraq used WMD on the Kurds. Most likely those are in Syria now. It is fact that Iraq was not allowing full access to U.N. Inspectors. The U.N. even passed a resolution demanding that Iraq stop deterring inspectors. Also note, that unlike some people, I have not made a personal judgement about anyone posting on this thread based solely on the value of their opinion. One other thing, everyone who can, please vote for Obama. He's a good, devout Christian. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 "There has been no condoning of torture." I see - shackling someone to the floor is not torture; keepingg them in solitary confinement for 22 hours a day is not torture. These are documented facts. Well Beebop, I hate to find out what you think is torture. Oh and by the way, why does being a "christian" mean that you should vote for that person? (Even if I could vote in the US, which I can't, of course.)Beebop I lack experience in this as we don't have many people of your persuasion in my country, but are you what is commonly called a Bible Bashing redneck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Good grief. If you think it's in the U.S.' best interest to run the treasury to near-bankrupcy by spending one sixth of the budget on the military, fighting an unwinable war the only concievable purpose of which is to keep a U.S.-friendly government in charge of the oil - fair enough. But the means it takes to reach such aims - lying to the public, election fraud, illegal wiretapping, torture, censoring the press, censoring academic institutions. If this is Christian president, I'll rather have a Satanist. Seriously, not joking. And yes - Clinton may be a horny pervert but that's irrelevant to his qualifications as a president. If Bush does what in his perception is "the right thing" no matter if it's legal or not, it disqualifies him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Fear not. My earlier comment was not sarcastic. I frankly don't care how I'm perceived. I don't have the grand authority to judge others. Unless they know something I don't, they don't have that authority either. I pray for democracy and freedom for all. What an unadulterated load of crap: Lets go and look at a couple of your choice comments from a bit late in this same thread: >When a Christian man stands up for what's right he's a liar, and when a horny >pervert commits adultery in a national treasure he's a hero. >One other thing, everyone who can, please vote for Obama. He's a good, >devout Christian. I think that its pretty damn clear that you're judging others. In particular, your world view seems based on a fundamental assumption that being a "good devout Christian" is a sisgnificant characteristic that can be used to judge the qualifications of those seeking political office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 As I said does Congress not know this? If they have evidence why do they not begin an impeachment trial?You do not answer my main point, if Congress has the evidence what are they doing with it? If they do not have the evidence and you do, give it to them. If you guys are convinced that Bush is a guilty where is Congress and where is the public outrage demanding Congress to have a trial? I just do not see the Public demanding this of Congress or voting Congress out and someone else in. Is the Public or Congress guilty of a great coverup? You guys seem to say Yes, the American people and Congress are guilty of criminal coverups. Here are my thoughts: I think that Bush deserves to be impeached. Very little in life would would give me give me more pleasure than seeing his sorry ass rotting in jail. However, I also recognize that impeachment proceedings would be an enormous waste of time and money. The congress is sharply divided along partisan lines. The Senate was unable to muster enough votes to start floor debate on the various resolutions regarding the Iraq war. I don't think that there is a snowball's chance in hell that you could get impeachment proceedings to move forward through the House. As I've noted in the past, I want to see the Democrats focusing their time and energy on important issues. Watching impeach move forward would give me personal satisfaction, but I recognize that this is (ultimately) a distraction from what's really important. With this said and done: I very much hope that the Democratic party is able to build on its current electoral success. A few years down the road, the political calculus may look very different. The American people may have come to recognize the crimes that the Bush administration has committed. The Democrats may have large enough majorities that this type of legislation can actually get passed. I don't see any chance that Bush or Cheney could get impeached retroactively (they'd already be out of office). However, I'd love to see them handed off to the ICC and tried for War Crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rona_ Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Fear not. My earlier comment was not sarcastic. I frankly don't care how I'm perceived. I don't have the grand authority to judge others. Unless they know something I don't, they don't have that authority either. I pray for democracy and freedom for all. What an unadulterated load of crap: Lets go and look at a couple of your choice comments from a bit late in this same thread: >When a Christian man stands up for what's right he's a liar, and when a horny >pervert commits adultery in a national treasure he's a hero. >One other thing, everyone who can, please vote for Obama. He's a good, >devout Christian. I think that its pretty damn clear that you're judging others. In particular, your world view seems based on a fundamental assumption that being a "good devout Christian" is a sisgnificant characteristic that can be used to judge the qualifications of those seeking political office.Unadulterated load of crap is putting it nicely :( George Bush is making a mockery of Christianity. He uses it and abuses it to his politcal advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Well Mike, repeatedly lying to the citizens of the country of which he is the leader. Is this not a criminal act?Condoning torture, is this not a criminal act?Illegally tapping phones, is this not a criminal act? There is no evidence Pres. Bush has made any false statements. There has been no condoning of torture. There has been no illegal tapping of phones. When a Christian man stands up for what's right he's a liar, and when a horny pervert commits adultery in a national treasure he's a hero. There is evidence that Iraq at one time had WMD, which Iraq used WMD on the Kurds. Most likely those are in Syria now. It is fact that Iraq was not allowing full access to U.N. Inspectors. The U.N. even passed a resolution demanding that Iraq stop deterring inspectors. Also note, that unlike some people, I have not made a personal judgement about anyone posting on this thread based solely on the value of their opinion. One other thing, everyone who can, please vote for Obama. He's a good, devout Christian. Thanks. So, are you an internet monitor for Homeland Security or DOD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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