third round control ask or suggestion to play?

[mikeh]

For me, 2♣ is 5+ suit, and I would cue-bid the queen if I had it in the up the line format.

 

I think that you would find yourself in a tiny minority in this view of 2♣.

 

With xx KQx Kxxx AKxx, your response to 1♥ is? I suspect that if you gave this hand to a panel of 2/1 experts, at least 90% would say 2♣... I would say 100% but experience suggests that it is foolhardy to predict a 100% vote for anything.

 

Indeed, make it xxx KQx Qxxx AKx, and I'd suspect a significant number of 2♣ bidders. It is far from clear to me that the suggestion about cue-bidding the Q in partner's 'suit' should apply to 2♣ responses to 1Major. I see its utility when the suit is known to be 5 cards, but otherwise it seems likely to be a retrograde step, especially if we are the only one possessing the control in the 'in-between suit'.

[inquiry]

For me, 2♣ is 5+ suit, and I would cue-bid the queen if I had it in the up the line format.

 

I think that you would find yourself in a tiny minority in this view of 2♣.

 

With xx KQx Kxxx AKxx, your response to 1♥ is? I suspect that if you gave this hand to a panel of 2/1 experts, at least 90% would say 2♣... I would say 100% but experience suggests that it is foolhardy to predict a 100% vote for anything.

 

Indeed, make it xxx KQx Qxxx AKx, and I'd suspect a significant number of 2♣ bidders. It is far from clear to me that the suggestion about cue-bidding the Q in partner's 'suit' should apply to 2♣ responses to 1Major. I see its utility when the suit is known to be 5 cards, but otherwise it seems likely to be a retrograde step, especially if we are the only one possessing the control in the 'in-between suit'.

With balanced hand and (12)13-15 hcp with 3 card support, I respond 3NT to one of major. I find showing a side five card suit before support too valuable to mix is 3 can 4 card 2 of a minor response followed by GF raise. So with your example hand, my response is 3NT as long as I don't decide to upgrade to "16" for some reason. If I did, I would respond 2NT (jacoby) despite only 3 card support. I prefer 2m to show 5 card suit.

[pclayton]

I understand the inference about Opener not holding the ♣Q. These are the same rules I use for cuebidding.

 

But whats so sacrosanct about the Q♣? Might responder need the Q or shortness? 6♣ asks for either.

 

Give responder: ♠Kx ♥KQxxx ♦A ♣AKxxx, and responder doesn't really care if opener has the Q or shortness, as long as its either.

[kenrexford]

This post is developing into a telling commentary on the state of bridge theory these days.

 

First, is the system 2/1 GF? This seems to be assumed.

 

Second, what is the style with regard to a 2/1 in clubs?

 

Third, what options did Responder have other than a simple 3♥ call? What options after 1♥-P-2♣-P-2♥, and what options after 1♥ directly that tailor the auction further?

 

Fourth, what inference was available from 4♦? Was 3NT serious or non-serious? Is LTTC used? What type of cuebidding was used?

 

Fifth, what options other than 4NT as RKCB were available? Would 5♣ be a cue, or an asking bid, or something else?

 

Sixth, are there any agreements as to 6♣, specifically, by inference, or by general rules for undiscussed auctions?

 

How on earth people from different schools and different tool groups can intelligently debate/discuss options and inferences is beyond me, proven herein.

 

I happen to have a unified theory here. I can, therefore, give an opinion as to what 6♣ would mean if all of the assumptions derived from all of my and partner's options are assumed, but that helps no one in assessing what 6♣ will mean in their blend of options, assumptions, rules, defaults, and the like. Anyone with any number of different assumptions, tools, default, and the like will "disagree" with the conclusion, accurately, as their set of parameters is different.

 

Quite an amazingly complicated concept this cuebidding is, eh?

[mike777]

Imagine a 2/1 auction like:

 

1H - 2C

2H - 3H

4D - 4NT

5H - 6C

 

5H showed 2 keycards without the queen. 6C can have two different meanings: It is either a try for 7 asking for a third round control, or it is a suggestion to play 6C. What should it be? Can you formulate a good general rule? If you play this as choice of strain, should opener often correct to 6H? Could you give a hand where it is close?

 

When a similar (but different) auction came up, the 6C bidder wanted to play there, opener jumped to 7H with xx in clubs, off the ace of hearts. Fortunately this was a practice bidding session.

Here is my simple approach.

1) 6clubs promises all the keys and shows the K of clubs and agrees hearts and is a grand slam try in hearts. I would add that responder bidding 4nt would lead me to believe they do not have a void in spades or diamonds.

 

They are looking for something, what I am not sure of at this point but I would bid 6D with the K of D or 7H with outside undislosed source of tricks.

 

I should add that for me 6H shows 6 hearts(99+) and does not deny extras.

I should add that for me 2clubs shows 14+ very often and that 3H is a slam try.

[kenrexford]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add in the possibility of Fast Arrival, Lawrence 2/1, Hardy 2/1, or some other variants thereof. LOL

[han]

Ok Mike, I came to this post late. You are right in that the original poster did not suggest that possibility, and having read many of his posts before, I am surprised that this is not part of what he plays. However it makes sense to me and this is what it would mean in my partnerships. Yes, this has no bearing on the original post.

Very good Ron. I usually play serious 3NT, and we may cuebid a queen if partner has shown an honest suit. Whether this is the case here I don't find very interesting because I usually don't play 2C as a natural GF.

 

To respond to Apollo's comment, we do rebid 2H often with crappy 5-card suits, it does not suggest a good suit for us and 2NT really shows stoppers in the unbid suits. If the auction looks offensive to you then you can remove the spade jack and put it with the diamonds. Hopefully this makes 2H more reasonable.

 

 

There have been some interesting suggestions: Frances thinks that a blackwooder can never suggest an alternative strain, this makes a lot of sense if you use RKC very sporadically. Josh plays that a rebid of a first bid suit is always a suggestion to play there, I like this rule, I think I might be able to remember it. Others are more in the middle, Phil says that one can suggest a different strain but not if there has been a suit that has been bid and raised early in the auction.

 

I'm not convinced that 6C cannot logically be a suggestion to play there. Besides, tomorrow's auction will likely be slightly different so I prefer to have a clear rule. Maybe partner will completely agree about when 6C can be a suggestion and when it cannot, but I'd rather not risk it in the heat of battle.

[mike777]

ok since no one asked assuming a 2c is 100% game forcing why not just rebid 3c over whatever 2h means if you got long clubs?

[inquiry]

ok since no one asked assuming a 2c is 100% game forcing why not just rebid 3c over whatever 2h means if you got long clubs?

Because when you support hearts later, it might not be "real support", and if you dont support hearts, it will be hard to use RKCB for hearts.

[mike777]

ok since no one asked assuming a 2c is 100% game forcing why not just rebid 3c over whatever 2h means if you got long clubs?

Because when you support hearts later, it might not be "real support", and if you dont support hearts, it will be hard to use RKCB for hearts.

ok so hearts are trump ...agreed.....clubs is grand slam try..not to play agree.

[000002]

i saw many good comment in this post,and i noticed all the great master seems ignore a detail.

 

i illustrate:

 

AK-----QJxx

Qxx----AKxxx

xx------Qxx or Kxx

AKQJxx--x

 

responder raise 3♥ to check ♦ control.

if he start from 3♣ rebid,then,1h-2c,2h-3c(2n),3nt-4c,4nt-?he has no ideal now.

 

i agree 6♣ is a generic grand seeking,but i agree that it's alternative slam too,it depend on our commentary now.:)

 

regards 000002

[Rebound]

Funny thing: three people with whom I play regularly, I believe, would each play it a different way, i.e. one of, to play, second place to play, and grand probe. They each have a slightly different style and my gut tells me they'd each choose a different meaning for the 6♣ call. But I guess that's just familiarity.