1M-1NT-2NT

[firmit]

For 1M-1NT-3m, one should generally show 5-5 or at least 5-4, and normally game-forcing.

 

Does anyone have agreement regarding 1M-1NT-2NT? Or does people generally use this as invitational showing (17)18-19hp.

 

I have read a couple of meanings connected to it as a forcing bid, where responder bids 3♣ with minimum and no support for openers major. Other bids constructive, resulting one might miss out on a fit in clubs. However, this opens up for the possibility to stop at the 3 level if no good fit is found and prospects to 3NT seems bad.

 

Is this the general consensus for people using 1♥/♠-1NT;2NT as forcing? Any thoughts?

 

I'd really like inputs to a conventional meaning with a unbalanced hand. Reason for this is recently missing out on a slam in clubs where all, but one pair, were in 4♠+1. Responder had long clubs, but no chance to show it.

[pbleighton]

"Does anyone have agreement regarding 1M-1NT-2NT? Or does people generally use this as invitational showing (17)18-19hp."

 

Yes, that's how I play it. The shape is balanced, maybe 54m22 with something in the doubletons.

 

I don't know how to show this hand otherwise.

 

Peter

[kenrexford]

There is a technique I learned from an excellent player and play in this auction that may be of interest. He calls it "power 2NT."

 

After 1M-P-1NT-P-?:

 

2NT is a GF soft relay to 3♣. Responder is free to support the major or bid his own suit, but the normal response is 3♣. After this, any call by Opener is natural and GF, 3NT being the major-club hand.

 

A jump rebid in the major, not through 2NT, is then strong but NF.

 

A jump shift, not through 2NT, shows a 5-5-5 hand (5-5, 5 losers).

 

2♦ shows 4+.

 

2♣ is artificial and semi-forcing (can pass with weak and long clubs). Modified BART is used after 2♦, but Opener might have a balanced 17+ to 19- hand. Opener could even bid 2♣ with some weird hands.

 

Having used this technique for years now, I like it a lot.

[Adebisi]

2NT could be used as FG 18+ 6+MAJ, coz u dont have normal bid for that hand in nat systems, 3MAJ would be inv but NF.And inv 17-18 bal hand u go via 2♣/♦ and 2NT rebid.:)

[jvage]

Around here (Norway) most experts use 2NT as forcing, and it can be used with many different types of hands. 3NT would typically be 18-19 balanced, but opener is free to decide between 2NT (forcing) and 3NT, depending on honour-location and how much info he is willing to share with opponents.

 

I play a very simple response structure;

1♥ - 1NT

2NT:

 

3♣ = 5+♣

3♦ = 5+♦

3♥ = 3♥ (we occasionally bid a nonforcing 1NT with 3334 even when 1♥ promise 5)

3♠ = 3244

3NT = 55+ in the minors

 

1♠ - 1NT

2NT:

 

3♣/♦: 5+

3♥: 5+♥

3♠: 2(3) ♠, no lower 5 card-suit

3NT: 4♥

 

Some (including Helgemo - Helness if I remember correctly) play a 3♣ response as 1 5+ minor (3♦ asking), freeing more room for the other responses (the main advantage is that after 1♠ you don't have to choose between showing 4♥ or 2♠ with 2434 or 2443 as in my suggested version). I used to play this, but now prefer natural responses, both because it is easier to remember (KISS is a good principle for infrequent conventions),and because natural sometimes work better. For example it is easy to locate a 4-4 heart-fit when responder got a 5 card minor (after a 1♠ opening), or with 6+ in the major check if we got a minor fit before deciding between 3NT, 4M or 5m.

 

This method focus more on finding the best game than finding minimum slams, since it does not separate maximum/minimum with responder after the gameforce. However, since responder knows opener got substantial extra values, if he got extras he can often make a slamtry after a fit is found. Another advantage is that a jump in a lower suit (say1♠ - 1NT, 3♣) can be played as promising at least 5-5 (and GF in my style).

 

John

[SteelWheel]

Two ways to go here, and it all boils down to whether or not your system condones opening 1NT with a hand holding a five-card major (I'm assuming a typical 15-17 NT here--weak notrumpers have other, analogous issues with which to contend).

 

If a 1NT opening is allowable with a five-card major, then a 2NT rebid should show an 18-19 balanced type hand.

 

If a 1NT opening is NOT allowed when holding a five-card major, then rebidding 2NT should confirm that a 15-17 hand is held by opener, but with the extra info as to the long suit.

 

In my serious playing days, our agreements were that five-card majors were pretty common (although we were playing a 14-16 NT in a Precision system), and we played a couple of weird toys in order to cope, one of which I know many on here disapprove of: 3♣Puppet Stayman over 1NT. Laugh if you like, it worked well for us.

 

In this system, IIRC, 2NT was virtually impossible as a natural rebid for us, so we starting using it to show various other hand types...it's far too late for me to go digging out my system to see what my youthful had cooked up way back when.

[helene_t]

1♠-1NT

2NT

This must be forcing since we need space to look for a 3-5 fit in ♥. Also, there are too few forcing bids available (for example to offer a choice between 3NT and 4♠ with one-suiters of various suit quality) if 2NT is not forcing.

 

1♥-1NT

2NT

Playing a 6-10 or even 6-9 1NT response, this does not have to be forcing as a (semi)-balanced GF hand could just bid 3NT which will almost always be the end contract. A 4522 With 16-17 points would make a limit raise. Besides, 2♠ is available as a generic force if you want to be fancy.

 

Playing a (semi)-forcing 1NT, though, we could still have slam, so it's nice if a jump to 3NT shows a specifc hand, especially at IMPs. I'm not sure if you will manage to put all GF hands unsuitable for 3m into 2♠.

[Finch]

You can't decide what 1M - 1NT - 2NT means without integrating it within the rest of your system. If you don't play any toys elsewhere, then it's natural, invitational (and how "invitational" indeed depends on your 1NT opening style).

 

If you play toys, it then depends what the toys are.

 

I play a 2C toy covering 12-17 balanced, clubs, or invitational 6-card major. That allows me to use 2NT as 18-19 balanced and 3M as forcing. It also leaves 3NT free which should show a very specific hand type otherwise uncovered by your system: what that is again depends on what else you can show.

 

Two other schemes I've seen both use the 2C "toy" to include all balanced hands, leaving 2NT as artificial. One approach is 2NT, 3C, 3D all show game forces in the next suit up (1S - 1NT - 3H is then 5-5 invitational) which responder completes with nothing special to show, or breaks with a long suit. Another is that 2NT is FG either balanced or 54 in the majors (with artificial continuations).

 

The argument for keeping strong balanced hands low opposite a F or SF 1NT response is that responder can have a very distributional hand and it gives you a chance to find suit slams in responder's suit.

[firmit]

Around here (Norway) most experts use 2NT as forcing, and it can be used with many different types of hands. 3NT would typically be 18-19 balanced, but opener is free to decide between 2NT (forcing) and 3NT (...).

 

(...)

 

Some (including Helgemo - Helness if I remember correctly) play a 3♣ response as 1 5+ minor (3♦ asking), freeing more room for the other responses (...).

I just read about this structur in "I Helgemo's verden" (In Helgemo's world). And it seems quite attractive, not just because our (Norway's :) ) elite-players are using it, but it gives the opener the chance to rebid 2NT with an unbalanced hand unsuitable for jump-shift. Does this structure/convention have an official name?

 

But, as you pointed out: KISS is a valuable guideline for a "convention-lover", like myself. I like the idea of being a naturalist, though I do feel more "safe" in conventionalities (hope my grammar is correct).

[jvage]

If you don't play any toys elsewhere, then it's natural, invitational (and how "invitational" indeed depends on your 1NT opening style).

For once I don't agree with Frances (I do agree with the other things she said in the same post....). In "Norwegian expert standard" there are no special toys in this position, 2♣ is natural and nonforcing. Playing 2NT as forcing frees up jumpbids as more descriptive, showing 5-5. In Bridge World standard I have noticed some of the experts sometimes jumping in 3 card minor-suits to solve the problem with strong unbalanced hands, making it close to impossible for partner to support the minor (I don't remember if this applies here or only after say 1♥ - 1♠). This is the "natural" way to solve the problem, but does not look like an improvement to me. On the other hand, if you play any "toys" (like the suggested 2♣) you may not need 2NT as forcing, since you can locate 3-5 or 4-4 heartfits etc. by using your toys.

 

Of course you sometimes risk getting to 3NT with 18 against 6, but often 3NT got some play and it may even be a good game :)

 

Where I do agree is that it depends on the rest of the system. My suggested version is best played with 15-17NT that includes all balanced hands with 5 majors within range. For example playing a weak NT you need some invitational bids (either a 2♣ "toy" or a natural 2NT), for the 15-17 NT hands (at least for 16-17).

 

John

[awm]

Probably this depends on the range of 1NT. The main advantage of 2NT forcing is that you can use it to describe some semi-balanced GF hands which otherwise would have to "fake" a suit. The downside is that you're somewhat stuck for a rebid with 18-19 balanced, which really should not be a game forcing hand as light as people tend to respond these days. You can either "bite the bullet" and accept being in game with balanced 18 opposite balanced 5 (or start passing 1M with balanced 5), or you can rebid 2♣ with balanced 18-19 and either make the 2♣ rebid forcing or accept missing some games when partner has 1-4 or 1-5 in the blacks and you have 25-26 high.

 

If 1NT is a fairly "standard" 5-9 or so, then slam is usually out of the picture after 1M-1NT. In this case it doesn't cost so much to "fake" a suit rebid, because you're usually just angling for the right game. Sure, partner is not totally free to raise opener's minor on four-card support, but usually when responder is balanced the right game will be 3NT even if there is a 4-4 minor fit. The advantage of 2NT forcing is reduced here, whereas the relative frequency of the weakest 1NT responses (where you don't want to be in game opposite 18-19 flat) is increased. Also if 1NT is NF here, 2♣ normally shows a real suit and passing it may be a bit more frequent (i.e. 1-3 in the blacks and min).

 

If 1NT is forcing and wide-ranging, and especially if you don't play immediate jumps as intermediate, there is a substantial slam possibility after 1M-1NT when opener is very max. In this case there's a serious question about what to do after, say 1M-1NT-3m when responder has four in the minor and 11-12 hcp. I've seen some people solve this by agreeing that 3♣ is potentially artificial (and GF) whereas 3♦ is always a suit, and adding 3♦ as a relay over 3♣ to ask further description. This fixes the initial problem, but makes it hard when responder has 6+♦ over 1M-1N-3♣.

 

This seems like another example supporting jwmonty's claim that while it's possible to design and play a good 2/1 GF system, you need a lot of gadgets/agreements. Many of the natural methods designed for "standard american" bidding, such as 2NT "natural invitational" work pretty well when 1NT is limited and not so well when 1NT is wide-ranging. It could well be that 2NT forcing is a better treatment in the 2/1 GF context.

[pclayton]

This is basically unplayable if you don't have another way to show a balanced 17-19. If you play a Mexi 2♦ it works, but I like Gazilli better to show the semi-strong hands.