Guest Jlall Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 A8xxx xxx x JT8x. 1C by partner, 1S on your right, you pass, 2S on your left, X from partner. white/white imps. 1) Do you agree with your first pass?2) What do you bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 If I belive all bidders at the table, then we have a 9 card club fit and they a 8 card spade fit. In this case, 2 Spade X is not getting us 500 or more. So I bid on with 3 Club. This should be stronger then 2 NT and is justified because of my shape and the nice fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 If I belive all bidders at the table, then we have a 9 card club fit and they a 8 card spade fit. In this case, 2 Spade X is not getting us 500 or more. So I bid on with 3 Club. This should be stronger then 2 NT and is justified because of my shape and the nice fit. No. We do not play lebensohl here. If we played lebensohl I would specify. I am asking this hand in context of a natural system. If you have some bid, even a fuzzy one, that shows this exact hand I am not interested to hear about it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I admit I would have bid 2♣ the first time. Having passed, I will just bid 3♣. The biggest risk in that seems that opponents are only in a 7-card fit, in which case my hand is worth a lot more than when he is void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 1. Pass is ok. 2. 4♣ seems fair now. Pard should be 0445 with considerable extras. The ♠A is junk, but the cross shortness should be golden. Would definitely cue with the ♠A in hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 4♣. But I would have bid 2♣ first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 2 likely ruff tricks + ??SA: Jump 4C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I would have bid 2♣ the first round (it's wildly unlikely partner has 3 spades, which for my methods means he is wildly likely to have 4+ clubs). Anyway, having passed, now what? Partner's double should show a good hand (there was some thread before where it was suggested partner could have some 0445 12-count but I'm certain justin wasn't in that camp). What is a down-the-middle double: - KQxx Axxx AKxxx? That has a nice diamond holding (switching the red suits makes it worse) and 5C is probably not with the odds NV though hardly a disaster. If partner has a 6th club 5C is likely to be good. I think I bid 3C, but I don't mind 4. My husband bid 4C when given the hand as a problem but said he didn't mind 3 (though he was another 2C-bidder-last-round). p.s. I wouldn't play lebensohl here. 2NT wouldn't be natural for me, it would be scramble. If I couldn't bid over 1S I don't have a very wide range of possible hands so lebensohl is not that useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I don't like the initial pass. I would (probably) have bid 3♣ to start with. After the double, I'm bidding 4♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I often see problems posed like this where the first action taken is strange and put you in a position where you either have to "make up" for the first action or continue the unusual position taken. Usually in these situations I vote to continue the original (strange) position if it's at all reasonable, so I'd bid 3♣ here and pray they compete to 3♠. Pard has a spade void so I think he can have a variety of hands where we will get a minus if I bid 4♣. I really hate that I have bid this the same way as if I had total *****. There is no way I'd have passed the first time on this hand. I'd bid 2♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I often see problems posed like this where the first action taken is strange and put you in a position where you either have to "make up" for the first action or continue the unusual position taken. Usually in these situations I vote to continue the original (strange) position if it's at all reasonable, so I'd bid 3♣ here and pray they compete to 3♠. Pard has a spade void so I think he can have a variety of hands where we will get a minus if I bid 4♣. I really hate that I have bid this the same way as if I had total *****. There is no way I'd have passed the first time on this hand. I'd bid 2♣. If you would bid 2C first then fair enough but I would hardly call pass strange. Actually everyone I had given this to had passed until this post. I wouldn't categorize either pass or 2C as strange with this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I often see problems posed like this where the first action taken is strange and put you in a position where you either have to "make up" for the first action or continue the unusual position taken. Usually in these situations I vote to continue the original (strange) position if it's at all reasonable, so I'd bid 3♣ here and pray they compete to 3♠. Pard has a spade void so I think he can have a variety of hands where we will get a minus if I bid 4♣. I really hate that I have bid this the same way as if I had total *****. There is no way I'd have passed the first time on this hand. I'd bid 2♣. If you would bid 2C first then fair enough but I would hardly call pass strange. Actually everyone I had given this to had passed until this post. I wouldn't categorize either pass or 2C as strange with this hand. Whew, are we all influenced by the follow-up problem to prefer pass? Of course my length is in the worst possible suit, but A plus 4-card support plus a ruffing value still seems a better playing hand than many 8hcp hands where I think we would raise routinely. Also, if we play in a x-ruff opponents length are well-placed to avoid over-ruffs. What are the downsides? Making it easier for opps to find a better fit? Probably, much easier for them to find a 4-4 heart fit after 2C. Partner overcompeting? I doubt it. What do i know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Whew, are we all influenced by the follow-up problem to prefer pass? Wouldnt the follow up problem make you wish you had bid 2C? Now you have to guess between 3 and 4 clubs... Sorry to "name drop" but if you think pass is crazy then you should know that garozzo passed at the table (my counterpart), bob hamman said he would pass, and my dad said he would pass, and bart bramley said he would pass.. I gave it to them live so they were not influenced by the follow up auction (ie, it goes 1C 1S to you... "pass" ok 2S X pass to you "..."). I have no qualms with 2C really, and think its a perfectly fine bid, but it's hard for me to understand such strong objections either way on a hand with marginal values, length in the opponents suit, and only 4 trumps. Anyways.. results.. If you bid 4C you get to game, at the table I just bid 3C but my partner still bid on with 3D so we got to game, and at the other table garozzo jumped to 5C. I must say I felt very cautious when perhaps the best player ever bid TWO levels higher than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Frances: Sorry for posting here, as I'm hardly an expert. I just don't understand the logic. You call a down the middle X - KQxx Axxx AKxxx 1-0 Diamond to the Ace2-0 Ruff a diamond3-0 Club to the A4-0 Ruff another diamond4-1 Heart to the Q and A5-1 Spade to the ace 6-1 Heart to the K7-1 Last diamond ruff or a trump promotion. Either one will do. That's down 2 for 300, and assumes that the HA is in the wrong place and clubs are 3-1. And you think that 5C is not with the odds. I think ending in 3C is a terrible thing. They aren't going to make it, so at most it'll give me one IMP (130 vs. 100). I'm losing the chance for a huge score for one measly IMP? And if I bid 3♣, that sounds like a 0 count. Bleah. I think I have to take a position. If I don't think we have game, I pass. If I do, I'll bid something nice and strong...3♠ sounds about right. With my pass of 1♠, partner's not going to suddenly take me for 10 hcp. Partner could easily have a hand with 8 tricks off the top and 3NT is the right place to play (6 clubs AK and the red aces would do it). I'm sure that when I'm an expert I'll understand why this is a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Pass seems clear, originally, in a natural system. Partner may well hold a 3 card suit, and we really do not want to get involved, anyway, unless partner has a reason to bid again... as he has. As for the decision now, I am with Jeffrey/Frances in that this is a 3.5♣ bid. Unfortunately, while bridge often involves irrational elements (at least, the way I play it) it insists upon integers in the auction. Imps gets me to bid 4♣...having passed, I can't really hold much more than this, and 3♣ now could be on a far, far worse hand. If we belong in game, and we may, then it is now my responsibility to inform partner of the possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Whew, are we all influenced by the follow-up problem to prefer pass? Wouldnt the follow up problem make you wish you had bid 2C? Now you have to guess between 3 and 4 clubs... Sorry to "name drop" but if you think pass is crazy then you should know that garozzo passed at the table (my counterpart), bob hamman said he would pass, and my dad said he would pass, and bart bramley said he would pass.. I gave it to them live so they were not influenced by the follow up auction (ie, it goes 1C 1S to you... "pass" ok 2S X pass to you "..."). I have no qualms with 2C really, and think its a perfectly fine bid, but it's hard for me to understand such strong objections either way on a hand with marginal values, length in the opponents suit, and only 4 trumps. Anyways.. results.. If you bid 4C you get to game, at the table I just bid 3C but my partner still bid on with 3D so we got to game, and at the other table garozzo jumped to 5C. I must say I felt very cautious when perhaps the best player ever bid TWO levels higher than me. I don't think it's crazy. I'm just surprised that so many great players (you included) would choose not to make a bid (2♣) that shows pretty much exactly what you have. If I passed on this hand I would think I was doing something anti-field. You could convince me that pass is better than 3♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I seem to be the only one who advocates an immediate 3♣ bid over 1♠ while a lot of folks (including a very expert panel that Justin was able to poll) shied away from a 2♣ raise). Curious what folks think opener's experted club count is given my hand and the auction to date. To me, the crucial point about the hand is my stiff Diamond. There are a lot of Diamonds in the other three hands. The more Diamonds that partner holds, the higher his expected Club length... Personally, I think that the odds that partner has three clubs are exceedingly small. As usual, I want to bid the limit of my hand ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Richard, I agree that partner having 3 clubs is (almost) impossible given the spade lengths around the table, but partner has know way to know that you know this. The minimum amount of clubs for a 3C bid should not change based on what you know from your own hand about partners lengths, it should be fixed (so he knows what to expect from your hand). He won't expect you to be bidding his length for him. I'm not saying anything is right or wrong, but partner will expect at least 5 clubs from you for your jump. Of course that doesn't mean you can't bid it with 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I bid 2C first time round and 3C now. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Richard, I agree that partner having 3 clubs is (almost) impossible given the spade lengths around the table, but partner has know way to know that you know this. The minimum amount of clubs for a 3C bid should not change based on what you know from your own hand about partners lengths, it should be fixed (so he knows what to expect from your hand). He won't expect you to be bidding his length for him. I'm not saying anything is right or wrong, but partner will expect at least 5 clubs from you for your jump. Of course that doesn't mean you can't bid it with 4. Hi Justin I understand your point, however, I'm not sure that I agree with it: Lets consider two different strategies for raising partner Strategy A: 1. Calculate partner's minimum possible trump holding 2. Raise partner to the appropriate level using your favorite metric (LTT, "Working Points", whatever you prefer) 3. Opener can re-raise aggressively with extra length Strategy B: 1. Make your reasonable estimation of partner's expected trump holding given your hand and the bidding so far 2. Raise partner to the appropriate level using your favorite metric 3. Opener needs to be much more conservative re-raising since partner have already bid guess at opener's distirbutional values. I'd argue that strategy B creates a lot more pressure at the table. Some of the pressure will be place on the opponents, who will often be forced a level higher in the bidding. Some of that pressure will be placed on opener who will often face some rather nasty decisions. I'm not sure whether Strategy A is better that B, or vice versa. However, personally, I think that B has a lot going for it. I think that there are going to be more situations where the opponents make the wrong decision over my 3♣ raise than partner misguesses over the opponents 3M partial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 The flaws in your strategy seem to be that 1) If you take opener out of the game somewhat (ie, you said hewould be very conservative reraising) you are losing something because most of the time responder won't know that partner likely has 4.5 clubs or whatever. I mean theoretically you could have a 6-6 fit and not find a save because opener is worried partner has 4, and responder is worried partner has 3. 2) Responder usually can't upgrade partners expected club length very often. It's pretty rare that you have such length in spades after they overcall 1S. 3) Your way is more disaster prone (I know you don't care too much about this if you feel your way has a higher expectation, rightly so, but it's still a downside to me). Of course pressuring the opponents more often immediately always comes with trade offs, and it's impossible to tell whats better. Interesting though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 1) If pass is clear over 2clubs here what would 2clubs have shown?2) IF I pass the first time and p bids x over 2spades what is a typical hand for her x now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 I have no problem with 2♣ and I have no issues with pass. Coming from a 12-14 NT environ, 2♣ is easier for me however. Having passed, and partner marked with short spades and a likely 0=4=4=5 pattern, I can't do less than 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 With an Ace and a shortage, I certainly would raise to 2C. Now I bid 4 Clubs. 3C is probably too conservative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
000002 Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Sorry to "name drop" but if you think pass is crazy then you should know that garozzo passed at the table (my counterpart), bob hamman said he would pass, and my dad said he would pass, and bart bramley said he would pass.. i don't know why they pass 1♠?i doubt they are NOT leading player now in the world --if they all agree that pass is the best bidding.does anyone fake this message? i take a simple instance to expose the fact that 2♣ is the best bidding:assume:1♣-1♠-pass-4♥,following this auction how to do if openner hold:KxAxxxxAKxxxxAs we know,4♥ is a iron contract and 5♣ iron too.but ,how to do by openner if u pass 1♠ overcalling? bridge is a game based on 2players , not alone hero. regards 000002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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