Fun with Multi: Multiplicity of Thought

[keylime]

I had this hand recently with Larry and I was perplexed - it generated some spinoffs that I have yet to successfully grasp.

 

Keep in mind that we have not dealt with the Multi hardly at all; yes we do have a defense for it that we're comfortable with on a low level basis only. This is more of a "general principles" mentality - we're aiming to add the needed layers to better handle the Multi.

 

1) 2D - X - 2M* (p/c) - X; we're treating this as "responsive". Is overcaller's 2NT followon Leb oriented? Scrambling?

1A) 2D - P - 2M* - X; P - 2NT; is this to be treated as if it was a weak 2, t/o double, and Leb 2NT bid?

 

2) 2D - P - 3M* - X; t/o for the major bid?

2A) 2D - P - 3M* - X; P - 3NT; is this ever for play?

2B) 2D - X - 3M* - 3NT; is this ever to play?

 

Thanks in advance.

[the hog]

Dwayne I'd like to answer, but you need to explain the meaning of your double of 2D, and also preferably the rest of the defence. What is 2H/S/N etc.

[keylime]

K for clarification:

 

2D - X = a "better multi"

2H = a good club overcall

2S = a good diamond overcall

2NT = natural

3C/D = natural, semipreemptive

[the hog]

OK. That makes a lot more sense

 

1) 2D - X - 2M* (p/c) - X; we're treating this as "responsive". Is overcaller's 2NT followon Leb oriented? Scrambling?

Why treat this as resp? If the X shows a good H/S suit and opening values, then this bid by opener's pd means they are in deep *****. Play it as penalties.

 

1A) 2D - P - 2M* - X; P - 2NT; is this to be treated as if it was a weak 2, t/o double, and Leb 2NT bid?

 

Yep! I would definitely treat this as Leb or Rubensohl, whatever your flavour.

 

2) 2D - P - 3M* - X; t/o for the major bid?

This is harder as the 3M bid shows tolerance for both Ms. I would play it as a big balanced hand, but there may well be better ideas.

 

2A) 2D - P - 3M* - X; P - 3NT; is this ever for play?

 

I guess so if you play the X as above.

 

2B) 2D - X - 3M* - 3NT; is this ever to play?

Absolutely; it is not difficult to construct hands that have this bid.

[helene_t]

1) 2D - X - 2M* (p/c) - X; we're treating this as "responsive". Is overcaller's 2NT followon Leb oriented? Scrambling?

Why treat this as resp? If the X shows a good H/S suit and opening values, then this bid by opener's pd means they are in deep *****. Play it as penalties.

I don't see that they are necesarily in deep ***** unless of course pd and opener have the same major. However, there may be a difference between hearts and spades:

(2♦)-X-(2♥)-X

Partner will most often bid 2♠ anyway so it's not so important to have the X available as t/o. Penalty is cute.

 

(2♦)-X-(2♠)-X

As reponder often has heart length and pd would have to bid at the 3-level, he needs to be encouraged. Play X as t/o. Since 2♠ suggests 2- spades (1- if they are juniors), it's not extremely unlikely that opener and pd both have spades.

 

For the rest I agree with Ron.

[lowerline]

1. You have to agree on how to play the 2NT response and play it the same way through out. Lebensohl is most common, but we play it as GF.

So: Dbl is takeout for the major RHO has bid; any suit is natural but NF; 2NT is GF but unsuitable to double

1a. 2NT GF (as above)

 

2. We play it the other way around: dbl is takeout for the other major (easy to convert to penalty) and 3♠ (over 3♥) or 3NT (over 3♠) is takeout for the bid major (both can be passed).

2a+b. Sure. 3NT might score better than defending 3M doubled.

 

Steven

[lowerline]

K for clarification:

 

2D - X = a "better multi"

2H = a good club overcall

2S = a good diamond overcall

2NT = natural

3C/D = natural, semipreemptive

My previous reply was based on a more natural (and standard?) defense against multi where double is 12-15 balanced and any overcall is natural.

 

I don't understand your defense. How do you differentiate a 12-15 balanced hand from a takeout for a major?

 

Steven

[000002]

good question,not so easy to respond,i will give u after my learning from other net friends.:)

 

now,i answer one of them as below,because i find many people seems forget it.:P

 

2) 2D - P - 3M* - X; t/o for the major bid?

i take this dbl STOPPER asking(of course maybe 18Hcps with balanced)

 

regards 000002

[inquiry]

1) 2D - X - 2M* (p/c) - X; we're treating this as "responsive". Is overcaller's 2NT followon Leb oriented? Scrambling?

1A) 2D - P - 2M* - X; P - 2NT; is this to be treated as if it was a weak 2, t/o double, and Leb 2NT bid?

 

2) 2D - P - 3M* - X; t/o for the major bid?

2A) 2D - P - 3M* - X; P - 3NT; is this ever for play?

2B) 2D - X - 3M* - 3NT; is this ever to play?

 

Thanks in advance.

1) should be responsive, showing two places to play, short hearts. If partner is stocked in hearts, he can pass.

 

1A) why in the world should 2NT be lebehnsol? I ask because (2♥)-X-(Pass)-? is quite different from (2♦)-X-(2♥)-? In the first case, you pretty much have to bid something or you will play 2♥ doubled. In the second, you can PASS with bad hands, so bidding shows values. Are you going to waste 2NT to separate a good 3♣ (say forcing) from a competitive one? Especially given that you already use double as responsive?

 

I play your #2) as takeout, but remember, the 3M bidder is showing support for both, and if he bids 3S, good heart length.

 

2A, yes 3NT is to play

2B, yes 3NT is to play

[keylime]

Steven,

 

A funny thought for you and others to chew on.

 

Around here ("here" is defined as Washington, D.C. metro area) there's a couple of pairs off hand that play the Multi - and they provide both the simplified and complex defense for handling the Multi. I haven't heard many opting for the simple defense!

 

However, now realizing that the 12-15 balanced hands may need inclusion somewhere is making me have a rethink.

[Gerben42]

1) 2D - X - 2M* (p/c) - X; we're treating this as "responsive". Is overcaller's 2NT followon Leb oriented? Scrambling?

1A) 2D - P - 2M* - X; P - 2NT; is this to be treated as if it was a weak 2, t/o double, and Leb 2NT bid?

 

2) 2D - P - 3M* - X; t/o for the major bid?

2A) 2D - P - 3M* - X; P - 3NT; is this ever for play?

2B) 2D - X - 3M* - 3NT; is this ever to play?

 

Umm... I hope I won't face this situation with Ben :lol: Here are my agreements with my most regular partner.

 

1. Natural and GF+

1A. Now that 2nd seat has passed, 4th seat is the strong hand and 2NT by 6th seat is Lebensohl with the 2M as key suit.

2. T/O for M

2A. 3NT is always to play unless agreed otherwise.

2B. See 2A.

[SteelWheel]

My previous reply was based on a more natural (and standard?) defense against multi where double is 12-15 balanced and any overcall is natural.

 

I don't understand your defense. How do you differentiate a 12-15 balanced hand from a takeout for a major?

 

Steven

 

I've played this (Dwayne's and Larry's) defense in midchart events myself for a number of years, the simple answer is there is no way to show balanced 12-15 hands. The theory is that just showing some random hand with opening bid values is not a big winner here--the opponents have come to do what they do best, which is find a major suit fit at as annoying a level as is possible, as quickly as is possible. Just wandering into the middle of this with an announcement that you hold some random balanced collection of high cards, is not going to help matters. It actually might be a negative, as now the opponents don't have to worry about some of the more obscene suit break possibilities.

 

A fuller explanation of double (assuming that Dwayne and I are cribbing from the same source) is that double shows an overcall in an unspecified major, OR some really powerful hand that can handle the auction when partner starts making assumptions about what the doubler might hold. A direct 2NT is 15-18, balanced, hopefully with something good in the majors. A direct 3NT is "to play" but is more likely to be based on "tricks" and stoppers, than on high card values.

[JanM]

The theory is that just showing some random hand with opening bid values is not a big winner here--the opponents have come to do what they do best, which is find a major suit fit at as annoying a level as is possible, as quickly as is possible.

Funny, my husband (who may have won a few more world championships than the rest of us ;)) thinks that the biggest downsides to playing multi are that it allows the opponents to show a balanced 12-15 HCP hand and that it allows them to overcall 2♥ over a 2♠ opening, neither of which is available over a natural 2M opener.

 

I think the advantage of getting into the auction on weak NT hands is the main reason that most people who have to choose between the ACBL "simple" and "complex" defenses opt for the "complex" defense, in which DBL shows the balanced minimum.

 

The opponents, by playing multi instead of natural weak 2 bids, have already chosen *not* to show their long Major as quickly as possible; we want to take advantage of that. One way we do so is by showing a hand with which we might well want to get into the auction (or dbl their final contract) and which we can't comfortably show over a weak 2M.

 

Jan Martel, who likes to play multi but doesn't get to when playing with Chip.

[pclayton]

I've never seen the need to get involved over an unknown weak 2 with something like: Axx, KJx, AJxx, xxx.

 

If you choose double to show a balanced 12-15, you are giving up something.

 

With a 4144 14 count, I hate the idea of waiting to balance over 2♥, since it may be 4♥ when it comes back to me.

 

I prefer multi / multi where dbl is a big hand or a single suited major and 2 major is a takeout double of the other major and can be passed.

 

Note that I get to make a TOx of 2♠ as well, but get hearts into the picture at the 2 level.

 

But then again, I don't have any worlds under my belt, so I may be full of it ;)

[cherdano]

I've never seen the need to get involved over an unknown weak 2 with something like: Axx, KJx, AJxx, xxx.

 

If you choose double to show a balanced 12-15, you are giving up something.

I like it the weak NT double (for me it shows weak NT or 18/19+).

• If you show the balanced (12+)13-15, partner can usually place the contract reasonably. Sometimes in game when you might have passed out 2S, sometimes competing accurately, sometimes passing out.
  
• If you pass and deny balanced 13-15, partner is under less pressure to act over 2M in his pre-balancing seat.
  

It hasn't come up often for me (since my opps apparently don't play double very often), but my biased memory does remind me of some IMP gains, e.g. by playing 3m (when, without a double, partner would either have to pass or get too high).

 

But I have never tried another multi defense.

[keylime]

Phil,

 

I tinkered with a method where 2M were takeouts. After forgetting this and leaving pard in an elegant 3-1....I decided to try another approach. ;)

 

The more that I think about the weak NT hands, I think the worse off you are in dedicating a high frequency yet highly prone double to preemption from an enterprising 3rd seat. Now with a 10-11 point hand you're probably going to end up defending for fear of bidding into RHO's hand for a swift double; likewise a 12-13 weak NT with a five card minor is tricky since you're having to introduce it at the three level.

 

The other thing is, 2D-2M balance auctions with this scheme I play still has the balacing double to show this balanced weak NT hand type. I don't think offhand that I'm losing anything significant.

[JanM]

The more that I think about the weak NT hands, I think the worse off you are in dedicating a high frequency yet highly prone double to preemption from an enterprising 3rd seat. Now with a 10-11 point hand you're probably going to end up defending for fear of bidding into RHO's hand for a swift double; likewise a 12-13 weak NT with a five card minor is tricky since you're having to introduce it at the three level.

 

The other thing is, 2D-2M balance auctions with this scheme I play still has the balacing double to show this balanced weak NT hand type. I don't think offhand that I'm losing anything significant.

This post confuses me. Perhaps I'm not understanding you, but it seems as if you first say that you don't like to double with a weak NT because maybe the opponents will preempt, but then you say that you don't lose the opportunity to double with a weak NT because if you pass it will go 2M PP back to you - don't you think that they're *more* likely to preempt if you pass than if you DBL? After all, when you pass they gain more by preempting than when you've already described your hand with the DBL and they have to risk the possibility that partner might decide to penalty double them based on the fact that you've shown a balanced 13-15. I'd include a 12-13 point balanced hand with a 5 card minor in the "weak NT" DBL, but I'm not sure whether you were saying that hand has to bid at the 3-level in your methods or mine.

 

And I, also, include 18+ hands in the DBL. Partner assumes that the DBL is the balanced 13-15 unless the DBLer does something more.