Determine the blame

[pclayton]

Last board; club game.

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&w=stxxhat9dkt9xckjx&e=skj9xxxhkqxxdjxcx]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

East.....West

---- Pass

1♦.....1♠

1N.....2♣

2♠.....4♠

 

Game isn't impossible, but you'd rather not be there at MPs. Actual conversation:

 

East, "If I knew you were going to hang me, I would have passed 1♠"

 

West, "Why are you rebidding 1N? It shows a full opener? All I need is a decent 12 for game with my 6 losers"

 

Who do you side with?

[mike777]

I assume east has the long spades and hearts?

75% EAST 25% west

 

Prefer one spade opening if open on junk

Prefer two spade opening if r/s style.

Prefer pass of one spade if west opens the bidding in either style.

[Finch]

Looks obvious to pass the 1S response.

[mikeh]

The only reason to bid 1N is to try to steal dummy: pass is an adequate, and more accurate, description of values over 1♠.

 

However, east is not entirely off the hook: he needs a decent hand opposite: even 10xx A10x K10xx KQJ makes for an indifferent mp game: and opener could easily hold that...that is a clear 1n rebid.

 

So I think that responder should involve opener via 3♠... this should be a general values try given the auction to date.

 

The blame for going beyond the 1 level: opener. The blame for reaching game, rather than the 3 level, 70% opener, 30% responder.

[kenrexford]

Unlucky hand -- not much fault. Especially if a 3rd-seat 1NT is 14-16...

 

Even if not, I see no particular reason why this auction screams for passing 1♠ at matchpoints. It looks like a notrump hand. If the expected range is 11-14, which most play, then why not bid 1NT with 4333 pattern, tenaces everwhere except spades?

 

Responder has a near-opener. So, he checks back. Finding the nine-card fit, he might wonder why partner did not pass 1♠. However, his spade suit has great body, his side heart suit probably has contribution, and he has a six-loser hand at worst.

 

Sure, the hands fit horribly. But, I cannot work this out easily.

 

If anyone erred, it seems that the best action after 2♠ might be 3♥ as an unbalanced game try. Now, the KJ-K10 looks horrible.

[the hog]

I would pass 1S, but I'd also like to change the checkback method to 2 way checkback. I also think Ken's suggestion of 3H is a good idea.

[Guest Jlall]

west 100 %. East did not hang him, he has a great hand and knows partner voluntarily bid over 1S with 3 spades.

[jdeegan]

:lol: West 100%. The first really egregious blunder should get all the blame imho. I love to open shapeless 10 counts third seat, esp. NV. But, never,never, never take a rebid with this hand in an uncontested auction. This would be a psyche. A bad psyche at that, since you are in a great spot. You may not win any given board, but over the long haul I have been well over 50% at MP's and plus IMPs on such auctions.

 

By the way, East might have opened a weak two bid, but with four cards in the other major, most authorities discourage that. It's also a little weak for a one bid opener in most systems.

[whereagles]

I don't think anyone is guilty here. Make West's ♣KJx into ♣Axx and we'd all want to be in game, while the auction would be the same. I suppose you could blame West for not passing 1♠ but 1NT isn't really a wrong bid, especially at matchpoints and with both opps passing (which hints at the 1♠ reply to be a max, 9-10 hcp).

[Double !]

Note:

for anyone who is suggesting that the west hand's bidding might be more responsible for the result on this hand, please note that the posting has the west hand to the right and the east hand on the left.

 

I would pass the balanced 11-count after P's 1S response. IMO, if I am going to open a subminimum hand in 3rd seat, I want to have at least 3 cards in any higher ranking suit than the one I bid so that I am able to pass partner's response and to assure partner tolerance/ 3-card support for partner's suit. Anyone for weak NTs?

 

DHL

[keylime]

I'd be tempted to open the 1♠ in certain contexts...

[Echognome]

I'm late to this discussion, but I agree with most of the others that it's West's fault. If you can get out in a known 4-3 fit, why encourage your partner. I agree with Justin's inference that once you find out West has 3 spades and chose not to pass 1♠, then you should take him for a good weak NT.

 

I don't understand the Hog's comments about 2-way checkback opposite a PH? Responder cannot have a GF hand, so isn't it an advantage to be able to play in 2♣ (opposite a 1♣ opening). And the puppet isn't really necessary opposite a 1♦ opening.

[keylime]

Another thing to consider: Why checkback when you have a perfectly good 4 card heart suit to show? I personally would have loved being dropped at 2 clubs myself for the entertainment value. :lol:

[the hog]

I'm late to this discussion, but I agree with most of the others that it's West's fault. If you can get out in a known 4-3 fit, why encourage your partner. I agree with Justin's inference that once you find out West has 3 spades and chose not to pass 1♠, then you should take him for a good weak NT.

 

I don't understand the Hog's comments about 2-way checkback opposite a PH? Responder cannot have a GF hand, so isn't it an advantage to be able to play in 2♣ (opposite a 1♣ opening). And the puppet isn't really necessary opposite a 1♦ opening.

Gnome, pd isn't a passed hand. You are the passed hand. (I must admit I would have opened 1S). Playing 2 way chbk if YOU are passed gives you more options - think about it.

[dake50]

What does a passed hand 2S show? P-1D-/ 2S??

Primes in side suits raise, quacks quit?

[gwnn]

This may be my puritanism, but I wouldnt have opened with that "prime 11 count" 3343 hand (be it 3rd seat)... And I would have opened 1 or 2 spades with West's hand... It seems far less palatable to pass with that nice 6-4 than to open with that yucky one... So for me it's a matter of style I guess...

[helene_t]

The auction looks as if both hands are equally strong, yet East has an LTC of 6.5 and West of 8.5.

[Apollo81]

Phil, when you post you should orient the hand so that the left-hand side is West and the right-hand side is East.

 

Many of the replies are blaming West when they clearly meant East.

 

edit: OK it looks like you posted it right after all, but the auction is mislabelled

[HeartA]

I voted for "Mostly East" (the 1D opener). With 11 count, 4-3-3-3 shape (and no honor in pd's suit), to pass 1S is the most adquate action. Having said that, to rebid 1NT is not completely wrong.

[brianshark]

I don't mind so much the 1NT rebid... it's not such a bad place to play with the great texture. It's worth a 12 point hand for NT purposes. The problem is if it ends up playing in a suit.

 

TBH, I don't think Responder should jump to game, he should invite. Most weak 1NT hands have around 9 losers, which is too much opposite an 6 loser hand. I'd give 75% of the blame to responder.

[Poky]

East 100%.

 

If his hand isn't an opening then it isn't even a blind and aceless jump to game.

3♠ after 2♠ and everything would have been OK.

[pclayton]

I Posted this hand for several reasons.

 

I held the 3343 11 count. In spite of the horrible shape, the hand has good controls and great tenaces.

 

I sympathize with 4S, but its seems odd to blast this to game opposite a minimum balanaced hamnd after we had passed initially.

 

Its MPs and why should we relegate ourselves to playing in a crappy 4-3 with no ruffing value, when the hand rates to take the same or even less number of tricks in spades? Wouldnt you all agree that if 1N can me stretched to this hand type that this youd want to to rebid 1N?

 

Heres a minor rant. All types of 3rd seat garbage openings have become commonplace. If pard bids and the auction doesnt work out as planned, does that mean we have to play a ridiculous contract?

 

Another thread featured x Axx Qxxxx QJxx. When pard bids 1S over 1D, do we pass? 1S rates to be a silly contract. Rebid 2C? Then why cant the 4333 rebid 1N and a garbage 9 count be allowed to rebid. I cant see why 1D - 1S - 1N should be any stronger than 1D - 1S - 2C.

 

Make the hand Tx AT9 KT9X KJxx and I think all would rebid 1N.

 

Another possible idea is to bracket down 1N

 

I think the solution to these hands needs to be that certain simple rebids need wider ranges perhaps. But to totally condemn 1N seems wrong especially at Mp

[Guest Jlall]

I sympathize with 4S, but its seems odd to blast this to game opposite a minimum balanaced hamnd after we had passed initially.

Because partner's hand got better. It's certainly possible for a passed hand to bid game after finding a good fit. Think of a million balanced 12 counts with 3 spades and I'll bet that most provide good play for game (please don't start posting hands where they don't, obviously they exist).

 

Its MPs and why should we relegate ourselves to playing in a crappy 4-3 with no ruffing value, when the hand rates to take the same or even less number of tricks in spades?

 

Because partner might keep bidding. I would rather play 1S than 2N or 3S. It's fine to open light in third seat but at some point you just have to pass.

 

Wouldnt you all agree that if 1N can me stretched to this hand type that this youd want to to rebid 1N?

 

No. If partner were barred from inviting ever then sure I'd like to rebid 1N, but I would be pretty unhappy if I had a 13 or 14 count and partner was barred from inviting.

 

But to totally condemn 1N seems wrong especially at Mp

 

At matchpoints plus scores are better than minus scores. You've already done well not to pass the board out, don't go minus.

 

Make the hand Tx AT9 KT9X KJxx and I think all would rebid 1N.

 

Yes. But partner knows you have 3 spades. Remember, you showed them. He knows you didn't pass 1S. If you had this hand then over 2C you'd bid 2D, and partners 2S would be the end of it. You wouldn't get to 4S with this hand.

 

Heres a minor rant. All types of 3rd seat garbage openings have become commonplace. If pard bids and the auction doesnt work out as planned, does that mean we have to play a ridiculous contract?

 

Why is 1S a ridiculous contract? It seems like a perfectly fine contract. I don't understand why you're extrapolating this hand to a hand that has a stiff spade.

 

Another thread featured x Axx Qxxxx QJxx. When pard bids 1S over 1D, do we pass? 1S rates to be a silly contract. Rebid 2C? Then why cant the 4333 rebid 1N and a garbage 9 count be allowed to rebid. I cant see why 1D - 1S - 1N should be any stronger than 1D - 1S - 2C.

 

Do you see the flaw in your logic? You can keep bidding with a bad hand if 1S rates to be silly, but when you have a 4333 9 count 1S doesn't rate to be silly. The only reason you would bid 2C is because of your stiff spade. Even 2N rates to be a better spot than 1S with that hand. 2C is a gamble that you'll find a better spot than 1S given that it might well be a 4-1 fit. Partner still may invite, but you'd rather play in 3C/3D/2N than in 1S. When you have a 4333 9 count theres no way you want to play some contract other than 1S so there's no need to gamble on bidding again.

[helene_t]

Another thread featured x Axx Qxxxx QJxx. When pard bids 1S over 1D, do we pass?

That's why I wouldn't open that hand 1♦. Maybe 2♦ if I'm really desperat (which I am quite often).

 

But I might op 1♦ in third seat on something like

x

Jxxx

AQJx

Qxxx

 

Then I've lost my bet when partner responds 1♠ and subsequently 2NT, 3♠ or even 4♠. Maybe the majority of the voters would assign the blame to me. S..t happens. Next board.

[pclayton]

I'm having problems with the Quote function, so I'll just color this.

 

1. I sympathize with 4S, but its seems odd to blast this to game opposite a minimum balanaced hand after we had passed initially.

 

Because partner's hand got better. It's certainly possible for a passed hand to bid game after finding a good fit. Think of a million balanced 12 counts with 3 spades and I'll bet that most provide good play for game (please don't start posting hands where they don't, obviously they exist).

 

Understood, but I think you are splitting hairs. There are also many 13 and 14 point hands where game is poor, but the 1N rebidder would accept a game invite. Just because this hand is a jack short of a 'full' opener doesn't mean that 1N is wrong, it if its correct that to rebid 1N on a 12 count. I think in practice, many that advocate a pass with the flat 11 would also pass many flat 12 and 13 point hands over 1♠.

 

2. Wouldnt you all agree that if 1N can me stretched to this hand type that this youd want to to rebid 1N?

 

No. If partner were barred from inviting ever then sure I'd like to rebid 1N, but I would be pretty unhappy if I had a 13 or 14 count and partner was barred from inviting.

 

On this auction, partner didn't invite, he blasted to game. If we stayed in 3♠, I wouldn't be posting this hand.

 

3. At matchpoints plus scores are better than minus scores. You've already done well not to pass the board out, don't go minus.

 

Agree; but higher plus scores are better yet. I'm not ready to throw this auction into the 'best result possible' bin, since we are in a non-competitive auction. I would venture to guess that 80% of the players in a national field open this hand in 3rd, so there isn't much sense in trying to beat the pairs at the pass-out tables, since they are few. Don't you want to beat the pairs that play in 1♠? I accept that a rebid of 1N has its risks, but so does passing 1♠.

 

4. Do you see the flaw in your logic? You can keep bidding with a bad hand if 1S rates to be silly, but when you have a 4333 9 count 1S doesn't rate to be silly. The only reason you would bid 2C is because of your stiff spade. Even 2N rates to be a better spot than 1S with that hand. 2C is a gamble that you'll find a better spot than 1S given that it might well be a 4-1 fit. Partner still may invite, but you'd rather play in 3C/3D/2N than in 1S. When you have a 4333 9 count theres no way you want to play some contract other than 1S so there's no need to gamble on bidding again.

 

I think you start with a faulty premise; when you open this 1=3=5=4 (whereas I passed this creepshow :) ). You want to 'gamble' to find a better fit over 1♠ and I want to 'gamble' over 1♠ to get to a better scoring contract. You accept getting to 2N / 3♣ / 3♦ is an acceptable risk, but why should my passing 1♠ on the 3343 be so automatic when the risk is the same; that partner will continue to play you for a full opener? Being +80 when the field is +90 / +120 is the same average minus board as being -50 or -100 or -110 when the field is passing the board out. Frankly, I'd rather be getting a little overboard on my 11 versus your 9.

 

By the way, I think that at IMPs, much of your reasoning makes sense, since you are simply trying to land in a playable contract, and preserve a plus position.