Rebid with 1-4-4-4

[temp3600]

I rebid 2♣ with a small singleton and 1NT with an honor singleton.

[Guest Jlall]

 

Besides, MikeH said the same thing basically that I did.  Go pick on him for awhile.  :P

I briefly met Justin in Hawaii... and he is bigger than me and much, much younger (altho not better looking, I should add for the benefit of our female readership) so i don't want him picking on me, thanks :) :angry: :P :) :)

umm...you suck B)

[whereagles]

I like 2♣, but there are definitely some advantages to 1NT.

[jtfanclub]

Just curious to see if I'm on drugs...

 

I notice that not one person has said...'Hmmm, a 12 count, no 5 card suits, I may get stuck for a rebid, and in a competitive auction I'm probably going to lose because I'm missing the boss suit. If the hand gets thrown in, it probably won't be a bad result."

 

It's the drugs, isn't it?

 

Edited to add: And as long as I'm hallucinating, as long as I'm planning to rebid 1NT over 1♠, why am I opening 1♦ anyways? If I open 1♣ I've greatly increased the odds of getting a response I like, I won't miss a nice club fit if partner is weak, and I've decreased the odds of partner rebidding 2♠ with 5, or at least I think I have. What advantage is there to opening 1♦ if I'm not going to rebid 2♣?

[luckyloser]

Mike, I think the style that allows 1N rebids with singletons only works well if you often raise with 3-card support and, say, any xx doubleton. Then you can feel much better passing 1N with your weak 5 spades.

 

The 1N rebid with a singleton is actually even more useful with the well-known (in all bidding forums) 1435 shape, so that your 1C-1x-2C really shows 6 cards.

after reading all your comments I want to give my own opinion.

 

i see several good arguments for either alternative:

 

for 1nt

the only way to play 1nt and scoring much better at mps

at the time of decision 1nt is the most likely optimum contract

limiting the hand to 12-14

not implying a minor 2-suiter (5-4 or longer)

must be bid anyway with 1-4-5-3 and bad D, so it does not promise 2 s

makes it easier to find a h fit at a low level (p with Qxxxx,Jxxx,J,Kxx will pass 2c but bid 2h -nonforcing - over 1nt!!)

2c may land us in 4-2 d "fit" (Qxxxx,Jxxx,Ax,xx)

 

for 2c

shows another possible trump suit

does not promise 2 s (and with a AKQxxx a running suit)

1nt may land us in a 5-1 s fit

is the correct bid

1nt may be bad when p has very weak s and a 2nd suit

 

my conclusion is that at mps it is very important to be able to play in nt, especially 1nt as this scores best and defense is toughest. to bypass 1nt only to bid "correctly" may keep one happy but is loosing bridge strategy. at mps the partscore-battle is much more important than anything else. also a 4-2 d fit seems even worse than a 5-1 s fit.

 

the hand in question may be constructed to look even even more awkward:

x,KQxx,Jxxxx,AQx (2d or 2c here would be very awkward!)

x,KQxx,AQJx,xxxx (2c here is even worse)

so, in effect we cannot guarantee 2 s cards when bidding 1nt as there are hands that simply become unbiddable. so maybe we should drop that "promise".

that however can only be done if you raise frequently with 3-card s support here, so after a 1nt rebid responder can be sure you either have less than 3 s or a very nt-ish hand and will not insist on his 5-card suit.

 

all in all: 1NT, by far!

[SteelWheel]

Just curious to see if I'm on drugs...

 

I notice that not one person has said...'Hmmm, a 12 count, no 5 card suits, I may get stuck for a rebid, and in a competitive auction I'm probably going to lose because I'm missing the boss suit. If the hand gets thrown in, it probably won't be a bad result."

 

It's the drugs, isn't it?

 

Edited to add: And as long as I'm hallucinating, as long as I'm planning to rebid 1NT over 1♠, why am I opening 1♦ anyways? If I open 1♣ I've greatly increased the odds of getting a response I like, I won't miss a nice club fit if partner is weak, and I've decreased the odds of partner rebidding 2♠ with 5, or at least I think I have. What advantage is there to opening 1♦ if I'm not going to rebid 2♣?

 

I was just thinking the same thing as I read through this topic...

 

I just know that Al Roth would have passed this hand without a moment's hesitation; he always cautioned against opening when minimumish in high cards and lacking spade length.

 

As another sort of sub-topic here: What about those who play weak NTs? It appears they are pretty much forced to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with this hand type....

 

Long ago and far away, in an old Bridge World issue somewhere, there is a brief write-up of a gadget called the "Noisicerp 2♦ opening" (You go figure out the derivation of the name on your own for extra credit). This toy was aimed at weak notrumpers; the idea was that this opening showed 4441 hands with HCP strength equal to that of the notrump opening range--but ♦ was guaranteed to be one of the long suits. Gets the hand off your chest in one bid, and partner is well placed to do the right thing. Additionally, it has the advantage of being a fairly frequently passable bid, so it may have some tactical advantage when the situation arises.

 

In the case of this hand as presented: I suppose I'm a 2♣er with many reservations. I also used to be a 1NTer with this hand type. But Berkowitz and Cohen constantly make reference to this topic whenever it pops up in Master Solvers Club, and they insist that systemically rebidding 1NT when partner hits your singleton is "nuts". And that's one of the nicer things they had to say about it....

[mike777]

',,,,,,I just know that Al Roth would have passed this hand without a moment's hesitation; he always cautioned against opening when minimumish in high cards and lacking spade length......"

 

why say sorry....rs is not silly.....ok?

[helene_t]

As for passing this hand: I think it's marginal, I would certainly pass in 3rd/4th seat and in 1st/2nd I would pass without the intermediates and might still do it when playing against conservative opps that are likely to let the board pass out. Then again, add one HCP and opening is a no-brainer allthough the issue of this thread is still the same.

 

As for opening 1♣: If not playing Walsh, it's a good idea. If playing T-Walsh it's even a very good idea since your 1NT rebid then denies 3 spades so partner won't rebid a 5-card. One reason for opening 1♦ with 2344 is that you have a 3♣ rebid if partner doubles a 2♠ overcall. This is less of an issue with 3244 and with 1444 it's not an issue at all.

 

As for the 5-1 fit in spades: my IRL partners don't rebid 5-card suits in this situation. With a pick-up I know it could be an issue but I would still rebid 1NT without second thoughts. To me it's not close at all.

 

To me, this 1NT rebid is the principal case for playing strong notrump. If partner insists of rebiding 2♣ with four diamonds, I would prefer playing a weak notrump.

[SoTired]

Changed my mind about rebidding 1N... was against, now for. IMHO, rebidding 1N solves more problems than it causes.

Pros:

+ limits hand

+ 1m 1M 2m more likely 6

+ 1D 1M 2C more likely 5-4 and unbalanced

+ 1N is likely best contract with 1444 after 1S response

+ allows 1D 1S 1N 2H

+ allows open 1C with 1444 to improve chances of finding minor fit

Cons:

- Responder with weak hand and 5M cannot rebid 5M to improve contract

- Responder with 6M cannot count on 2-card support

- hidden singleton will play in 3N rather than 5m when 5m right

 

Have I missed anything?

 

BTW, I recall Roth-Stone once passed out a slam hand in a world championship

[mike777]

yep i rest my case on r/s/////they lost ?

 

 

////if we are losing a slam hand here at the other table...tell us.....////

[whereagles]

Changed my mind about rebidding 1N... was against, now for. IMHO, rebidding 1N solves more problems than it causes.

I rebid 1NT on a regular basis if the singleton is A,K or Q.

 

By the way, responder can keep rebidding 2♠ with 5 cards because opener will have 2 spades 98% of the time. (Probability of 1444 is about 2%.)

[Winstonm]

I, too, am beginning to see the light. 1N does solve a lot of the headaches of the rebids, and if you play something like x,y, z there should be no problems whatsoever in the continuations.

 

MikeH - I've not only met Justin but played against the turkey. :P He plays damn good and he is a nice guy - until you say something about age - then he sucks. :)

[luckyloser]

congratulations!

 

this is a very civilized discussion. the fact that some participants admit they have changed their minds is even more promising!

 

in other forums people only write and never read, they shout and do not listen...

 

hope it remains like that!

 

by the way, i never thought this problem would attract that many responses; some of them hit the bulls eye!

 

congratulations!

[awm]

Changed my mind about rebidding 1N... was against, now for. IMHO, rebidding 1N solves more problems than it causes.

Pros:

+ limits hand

+ 1m 1M 2m more likely 6

+ 1D 1M 2C more likely 5-4 and unbalanced

+ 1N is likely best contract with 1444 after 1S response

+ allows 1D 1S 1N 2H

+ allows open 1C with 1444 to improve chances of finding minor fit

Cons:

- Responder with weak hand and 5M cannot rebid 5M to improve contract

- Responder with 6M cannot count on 2-card support

- hidden singleton will play in 3N rather than 5m when 5m right

 

Have I missed anything?

 

BTW, I recall Roth-Stone once passed out a slam hand in a world championship

I agree with SoTired, but have a couple more positive comments on rebidding 1NT:

 

This solves a pretty serious problem on patterns like 1435/1453 when the minor is weak. If we're going to bid 1NT on such hands anyway, it doesn't really cost to do the same with 1444.

 

If we raise fairly frequently on 3-card support (even when balanced) then responder's inability to correct to a 5-card major is less of an issue. If the five-card suit is pretty strong (which is when the 5-2 fit really plays well anyway) then it's still okay to rebid it.

 

There is plenty of space to explore on GF hands over the 1NT rebid. Playing 2-way checkback leaves a lot of sequences available. It's not hard to work out ways to discover opener's singleton (or even exact shape if you want it) or to distinguish hands with good/bad six card suits so opener can make an informed choice of games.