Rebid with 1-4-4-4

[luckyloser]

MPS

 

playing sayc you open 1d on:

 

♠ 5

♥ KQ94

♦ QJ93

♣ AT63

 

p responds 1♠, what now? 1NT or 2♣???

[helene_t]

I think orthodox SAYC is 2♣ but I don't like that. I suppose the reasoning is that 1NT must show a balanced hand, but that argument is polemic. The fact is that 1NT leaves one step more of biddingspace than does 2♣, and even if it can systematically be with a singleton ♠ it is stille more descriptive than 2♣. But you would need too catter for a singleton in your check-back structure (SAYC doesn't even have a check-back structure).

 

Case in point: if partner is weak with 5-4 majors we can still find our hearts fit if I rebid 1NT.

[Winstonm]

2C for me. I understand there is a growing wave that likes to bid NT with singletons, but this isn't my cup of tea. The purpose of any NT bid is to clearly define the limit and shape of your hand so that partner can make an intelligent decision as to where to place the contract - once you have limited your hand with a NT bid, partner is captain unless he makes an invitational bid.

 

If I bid 1N with this hand, partner will be unhappy with his 4S contract with:

 

AQxxxx, xx, Axx Kx

 

And there is no good reason to bid anything other than a direct 4S over 1N.

[mcphee]

1NT seems best. Bidding 2C could lead to a 4-2 D fit when responder is 2-3 in the minors, or doesn't anyone give false preference any longer?

[Guest Jlall]

BIG fan of rebidding 1N with this hand type. I don't like 4-2 fits and I don't like missing 4-4 or 5-4 heart fits much.

 

I also don't see why Winston's hand has to bid 4S directly, that hand can just go through NMF and then bid spades. If partner still bids NT why wouldn't we want to play in NT?

[Winstonm]

Case in point: if partner is weak with 5-4 majors we can still find our hearts fit if I rebid 1NT.

 

My thinking here is if I am weak, who cares if I find a 4/4 fit? Unless you are a true matchpointaholic, devising a system to allow you to find the perfect partscore is self-defeating; the scoring method other than MPs is designed to reward game and slam bidding and minimize partscore accuracy.

 

I would, with a weak hand, be as content to rebid 2S with a weak 5/4 in the certain knowledge that I was facing at worst a 5/2 fit.

[Winstonm]

BIG fan of rebidding 1N with this hand type. I don't like 4-2 fits and I don't like missing 4-4 or 5-4 heart fits much.

 

I also don't see why Winston's hand has to bid 4S directly, that hand can just go through NMF and then bid spades. If partner still bids NT why wouldn't we want to play in NT?

What's the point in giving all that information to the opponents when you know the contract you want to play?

 

1D-1S

1N-2D*

2H-2S

2N-3N

 

1D-1S

1N-4S

 

If you were on lead, which auction gives you the greatest chance of "guessing" right?

 

(Youth...they like to bid a lot.) :)

 

doesn't anyone give false preference any longer?

 

I never hold 2/2 minors. :) If I ever did, I'd have to rebid my ugly Jxxxx and take my chances or guess. Nothing is perfect but my preference is to not worry to much about getting the weak hand bidding perfect. :P

 

Also, in my example hand notice how much better the 4S contract becomes if opener held singleton J or K or spades. I'm not saying never bid 1N, but I'd like to have a singleton honor card to do so.

[Guest Jlall]

How will you get to the wrong game rebidding 1N? The crux of this matter is about partscores, not games. Hopefully no matter what you rebid if partner has a game force you can find the right contract.

 

BUT since you insist on talking about game bidding, partner could easily have 5 spades, 4 hearts and an invite. If you bid 1D-1S-2C, partner will have an easy 2N bid and you will pass. However if you rebid 1N partner will bid some kind of checkback and invite in hearts which you will accept. So if you have a low HCP game with a 4-4 heart fit you can find game by bidding NT.

 

Seriously I don't think it will matter much what you do if partner is about to drive to game. You have enough room easily figure everything out (1D-1S-1N-2D-2H-2S-3C, or 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H, it doesn't matter too much). For partscore bidding I would much rather just rebid NT. You're right, I might on occasion play a 5-1 but I bet it's far more likely that you will play a 4-2 (on an auction where partner will go out of his way to false preference).

[helene_t]

It's not only about finding the best partscore. Game and slam bidding becomes inaccurate as well with a 2♣ rebid. Suppose it starts

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥*

3♥-?

 

* FSF

 

You have now defined your shape (could also have been 0454, maybe 4445, 1453), but you range is still 11-18 HCPs and since all five denominations are still open neither cue-bidding nor serious 3NT are available, maybe not even Last Train.

 

Do you play FSF as GF or only invite+? If it's GF you can miss 4♥ when responder has 5-4 or 6-4 majors and invitational strength. If it's only invite+ you can't even show your shape as in the above auction because it might take you too high.

[Guest Jlall]

What's the point in giving all that information to the opponents when you know the contract you want to play?

Concealment is great but a 6322 hand type with not great spades doesn't seem to already know where he wants to play if partner could easily have a stiff spade (and even if partner has promised 2 spades it's not really clear where that hand should play).

 

I never hold 2/2 minors. wink.gif If I ever did, I'd have to rebid my ugly Jxxxx and take my chances or guess. Nothing is perfect but my preference is to not worry to much about getting the weak hand bidding perfect.

 

What about 2-3? I think everyone would bid 2D over 2C with KQxxx xxx Kx xxx routinely since game may well still be on. False preferencing to keep the auction open for partner who has a wide range of shapes and strengths is a necessity.

 

And it's not like you really want to play 4-3 fits either with this hand if you could have played NT.

[Winstonm]

How will you get to the wrong game rebidding 1N? The crux of this matter is about partscores, not games. Hopefully no matter what you rebid if partner has a game force you can find the right contract.

 

BUT since you insist on talking about game bidding, partner could easily have 5 spades, 4 hearts and an invite. If you bid 1D-1S-2C, partner will have an easy 2N bid and you will pass. However if you rebid 1N partner will bid some kind of checkback and invite in hearts which you will accept. So if you have a low HCP game with a 4-4 heart fit you can find game by bidding NT.

 

Seriously I don't think it will matter much what you do if partner is about to drive to game. You have enough room easily figure everything out (1D-1S-1N-2D-2H-2S-3C, or 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H, it doesn't matter too much). For partscore bidding I would much rather just rebid NT. You're right, I might on occasion play a 5-1 but I bet it's far more likely that you will play a 4-2 (on an auction where partner will go out of his way to false preference).

The argument is not about whether there is a scientific method to bid the hand but if that method overall is superior.

 

I certainly appreciate your points that you can - to a degree - have your cake and eat it, too, by being more scientific, but at the same time that bit of science also paints a picture of your hands to the opponents who will be leading and defending.

 

Maybe my bias comes from reading too much Terrence Reese while learning to play - he was a huge advocate for "bashing" and leaving opps in the dark.

 

I seem to remember reading that Hamman said "Bobby and I tend to bash into game if we think we can make it."

 

Maybe it's the age thing - we old guys still like to make the opps guess. (Probably because we don't play as well as you, JL, so we have to get lucky.) :)

[ArcLight]

Justin,

If using NMF (or some kind of Checkback), I can see your point about 1NT.

 

What if you don't use NMF (or some kind of checkback)?

Would you then still bid 1NT?

[Winstonm]

It's not only about finding the best partscore. Game and slam bidding becomes inaccurate as well with a 2♣ rebid. Suppose it starts

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥*

3♥-?

 

* FSF

 

You have now defined your shape (could also have been 0454, maybe 4445, 1453), but you range is still 11-18 HCPs and since all five denominations are still open neither cue-bidding nor serious 3NT are available, maybe not even Last Train.

 

Do you play FSF as GF or only invite+? If it's GF you can miss 4♥ when responder has 5-4 or 6-4 majors and invitational strength. If it's only invite+ you can't even show your shape as in the above auction because it might take you too high.

Yes, but this is all academic if we do what we were supposed to do in the first place: open 1H. But I guess now I'm REALLY showing my age. :)

 

The debate stems from the concept of playing 5-card majors - a Goren player would have no trouble with this hand and it's auto 1H bid; however, with the advent of 5-card majors, we have other problems with which to deal.

 

We are forced to find a minor suit bid with 1444 and a rebid over 1S. Your points are well taken and it is simply a matter of which way do you want to obfuscate the bidding from here - 1N has good arguments; simplicity has something going for it as well. The important thing to understand is neither is perfect, that you and partner have the same ideas, and you accept with a shrug your bad results that may occur from time-to-time due to your choice.

 

It's hard to argue with Justin's reasoning, and 1N may well be the better bid as it gives you more ways to find the right contract and the only downside is the added information to opponents. (Like I said - too much Terrence Reeese influence in my youth.)

[Guest Jlall]

Wtf is everything an age thing? Are you really implying that I do not like my opponents to guess?

 

What about the times when partner bids 3N over 1N and the opponents don't know what to do? Then aren't they guessing? Maybe it's an age thing :) but your auction will be something like 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H-3N in that case where they know your entire shape.

 

What about when partner passes 1N, aren't they guessing more because my shape range is wider? There are other auctions to consider than the times when partner has 6 spades and a game force that you are not considering. I'm not really sure how you can argue that you bid 2C rather than 1N because you like to bash and I am scientific, but that seems like a giant leap from the logic train.

[Guest Jlall]

Justin,

If using NMF (or some kind of Checkback), I can see your point about 1NT.

 

What if you don't use NMF (or some kind of checkback)?

Would you then still bid 1NT?

I honestly don't know what bids mean not playing at least normal NMF. I guess jumps are forcing and 2 level is natural NF? But then how do you bid invitational hands, and how do you find 5-3 spade fits? Sorry, I don't really know how to answer it's like asking me how I'd bid over a 1N opener if I didnt play stayman or transfers :)

[brianshark]

I'm not a big fan of rebidding NT with singletons in partner's suit. It's not so much because I think that 2♣ is better that 1NT in this particular hand (this shape is awkward and there will be some lie somewhere), it's that I like my partner to know that when I rebid NT, I have at least 2 cards in his suit, always, without exception.

[ohioply]

2c for me - i don't want to show a doubleton spade by bidding 1nt, rather show my 2nd suit

[pclayton]

1N. I'm a big believer that a 2♣ rebid should promise 5♦'s.

 

I don't automatically takeout to 2♠ holding a 5 bagger either over 1N. Somehow we manage to always land on our feet :)

[mike777]

Wow alot of people do not mind rebidding 1nt with a stiff in partner's suit. Anyone for up for a simulation or something?

[EricK]

If you are planning to rebid 1NT isn't it better to open 1♣ rather than 1♦ (just in case partner has a weakish hand with ♣ support)?

[mikeh]

I have always been a 2♣ bidder here, and all my partners are as well, but I am increasingly coming around to the view that perhaps 1N is best.

 

I am not al lthe way there yet. In part because I see real issues with responder no longer being entitled to expect xx at a minimum in terms of support. While I appreciate that the 4th suit sequence 1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♥ 3♥ is a problem so is the idea that responder with AKQxxx in ♠s cannot count on a 68.5% or better chance of no losers and 6 winners! And that is only one example of many issues that arise when opener can be 1=4=4=4 for 1N.

 

Another, and more prosaic issue, relates to when responder should pass 1N with a 5 card ♠ suit and a weak hand.

 

My almost invariable rule, opposite a 1N opening bid, is to get to the major. I only depart from that on hands such as 9xxxx Q10x Qx Kxx.. where all my stuff is in the short suits...

 

Admittedly, one of the upsides to that approach is that once in a while we get to a 9 card fit, which is no longer an issue in the given auction.

 

But I still like to bid 2♠ on most 5332 hands after a 1N rebid, and experience suggests that this style is a consistent, altho not an assured, winner. In part because the long ♠s will usually score tricks while controlling side suits at a suit contract and be unusable in notrump and in part because of the preemptive effect.. compared to 1N being passed to 4th chair may be able to compete (opener is not USUALLY 1=4=4=4 even when that style is permissible).

 

If we rebid 1N on 1=4=4=4 hands, we will play 1N with 18-22 hcp and a 5-3 ♠ fit with, say, a combined ♥ holding of xx opposite Qx on occasion.... or play a 5-1 Qxxxx opposite x ♠ contract, with 4+ trump losers, when 1N was on ice.

 

For me, this is a work in progress: I have to convince my partners to experiment and, at our age, our urge to experiment has diminished :)

[cherdano]

Mike, I think the style that allows 1N rebids with singletons only works well if you often raise with 3-card support and, say, any xx doubleton. Then you can feel much better passing 1N with your weak 5 spades.

 

The 1N rebid with a singleton is actually even more useful with the well-known (in all bidding forums) 1435 shape, so that your 1C-1x-2C really shows 6 cards.

[han]

1NT for me.

 

I suspect that some of the people who object to 1NT here would rebid it on some 1-4-5-3 shapes anyway.

[Winstonm]

Wtf is everything an age thing? Are you really implying that I do not like my opponents to guess?

 

 

Chill, Dude - I am implying something about me as far as the age thing - it is harder to break the mold and do things differently after a number of years.

 

And no, I am not implying that you do not like the opponents to guess; what I have said is that a more scientific approach leaves less guesswork for the opponents - however, that doesn't mean bashing is the right thing but one should be aware of the tradeoff involved when using a more scientific approach, and that tradeoff is more information is given to the opponents as well as to partner. If you personally use a scientific approach, it means your system is giving more information to the opponents, not that you want to do so.

 

It may well be worth the tradeoff, and your arguments are persuasive.

 

Besides, MikeH said the same thing basically that I did. Go pick on him for awhile. :)

[mikeh]

 

Besides, MikeH said the same thing basically that I did.  Go pick on him for awhile.  :P

I briefly met Justin in Hawaii... and he is bigger than me and much, much younger (altho not better looking, I should add for the benefit of our female readership) so i don't want him picking on me, thanks B) :angry: :P :) :)