Newfangled 21st Century Bidding

[jdeegan]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sjhaj97da9873ck95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1NT-P-2♣-2♠

P-P-Dbl???[/hv]

:P My partner doubled with the hand shown. Certainly, a 3♠ would have been correct since we do want to bid game with a min of 15 opposite 13 in HCP.

 

My question is what in the world was she thinking? Is there something going on out there that I don't know about that may have misled the poor dear? My impression has been that the 'modern' treatment is that a double in that position shows 'cards' with three pieces or better in spades, all based on the LOTT. Is this actually the case? Does anybody who can play play that double as reopening showing short spades? (Note the rare use of "play play" in the last sentence.)

[glen]

- this space for sale to the highest bidder - okay 7NT wins -

[Double !]

IMO, there's more to this hand and question than initially obvious.

 

1) Partner had the opportunty to double the 2 spade bid (assuming that it would be for business) yet didn't do so.

2) IMO, a double after 2 passes probably should be business (we have to agree on a business double at some point in this forum).

 

(if a double by the 1NT opener has been agreed to be something other than an offer to defend, then that changes the picture.

 

3) There real issue, as I see it, is what bid should the given hand make after the two passes, what bid can you make that is now forcing?. A lot depends on what structure of responses to 1NT openings that the partnership is playing.

 

For example, if you are playing that a 2C response followed by 3m shows a weak 4-6 hand (popular at matchpoints with many people I knew when I used to play live - I now play dead), then you need a forcing bid here.

 

DHL

[the hog]

Well, I for one play it as takeout, which is what I think you mean rather than "reopening". Always have in all of my partnerships and probably always will. Partners prefer this treatment as well, so don't scoff too much!

[mike777]

I think x here is much more confusing than you give it credit for. Assuming 2nt in this position is not natural:

1) what does 2nt show?

2) what does x show?

 

Hmm I assumed this was in the advanced section, in the beginner section I think this bid is really confusing to us. :P

[SoTired]

I think many play the X in this position as showing cards with likely spade shortness. Others play it as penalty.

 

I'd be a little nervous making this bid undiscussed with this hand.

[Finch]

There is another thread in the General bridge discussion about what double of 2S should have meant by partner, and hence what double of 2S should mean by responder.

 

Yes, some people who can play play the double as take-out (although I don't). While this isn't standard - standard is definitely penalties - if you have been taught something is "correct" by a local teacher, or a regular partner, you may not know that what you have been taught is not the standard.

 

So personally I would have bid 3S which absolutely cannot be anything other than strong and forcing. But perhaps your partner thought "everyone" plays this as takeout, just like most people play, say, 1C P 1H (2S) P P x as take-out.

[jdeegan]

:) I'm getting the message that some people 'out there' might actually play a double in that position as representing a hand with spade shortness and some cards. What in heavens name is the theory behind this treatment? It looks like a simple case of bad bridge to me.

 

Consider. The stayman call indicates one of four type of hands:

1. Garbage stayman, assuming you play that. Just pass

2. A minor suit bailout, assuming you play that. Bid the six or seven bagger.

3. An invitational hand. Bid 2NT. Partner didn't double 2♠ which pretty much denies four spades. They evidently have a nine card fit. Pard knows you have four hearts.

4. A game going hand. Bid 3♠. Pard will know as stated above.

 

The double makes sense with an invitational hand with three or four spades - maybe with a doubleton honor. It's the only way you catch the opponents in a bad contract. Remember you are red vs white at IMPs. You should treat hands with zero through two spades as in the preceding paragraph.

[mike777]

I hate having to bid 3s with all game forcing hands. Why not have 3 of a minor as natural and game forcing which means you got to do something else with invite or bailout minor suit hands.

[jdeegan]

I hate having to bid 3s with all game forcing hands.  Why not have 3 of a minor as natural and game forcing which means you got to do something else with invite or bailout minor suit hands.

:lol: Sure. Esp. if you don't play stayman as an approach bid to show a long minor suit hand - i.e. you use 2♠ for this purpose. Otherwise, it's just a matter of the relative frequency of each situation and how much it matters. Maybe, play 3 of minor weak at MP's and strong at IMPs?

 

Also, playing 2NT as an omnibus invitational bid seems OK to me. Pard knows you should have four hearts and zero through two spades. Worse case you will be 4-3 or 3-4 or 5-2 or 2-5 in the minors. This is a fairly well defined hand.

[Apollo81]

Opener's double of 2♠ and responder's double of 2♠ are either both takeout or both penalty. If I was playing with a random partner without discussing I would assume both were penalty.

 

It's a reasonable takeout double if you've discussed it. If not, I think responder should have bid 3♦ or 3♠.