flytoox Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 I noticed there are some players here playing weak NT, 12-14. and one level opening and rebid NT showing 15-16. I think this seems a nice treatment. What do you guys think are the best continuation after pd's weak nt opening? should we use xfer? any suggestion and comments? thx fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 This will get a lot of posts, so I'd like to introduce a structure I used with a lot of success when playing a weak NT. It is based on the fact that when you open a 12-14 NT slams are not very common so focusing in playing the best partscore and best game without providing much information is a good strategy even when this costs a little on slamish hands. The second conclusion is that inviations usually cost imps, bidding game directly is better in the long term. So: 2c = to play (yes, you can play 2c when you open 1N!)2d = to play (yes, you can play 2d when you open 1N!)2h = to play2s = to play Over 2x responses with a maximum and fit (4 cards) opener can super accept. 2N = Game forcing with a 5 card major (now opener bids 3h with 3 cards and responder corrects to 3N with 5s or bids 4h with 5 cards, opener is always declarer)3c = Game forcing 5/4 or 4/5 in the majors. (now opener bids 4M with 4 cards, or the first 3 card major, same as before)3d = Game forcing 4/4 in the majors3h = Game forcing with 4 spades3s = Game forcing with 4 hearts3N = to play. Slamish hands start with 2N,3c,3d, 3h or 3s and then continue. Advantages: + You can play 2c and 2d, I've won a lot of imps with 2d making when 1N has no play.+ You don't give any information away+ Opener always plays the hand+ Very very preemptive, sometimes your game forcing bid is based on distribution and they can have a game without a way to enter the auction safely+ 100% easy to remember, no accidents with this structure. Disadvantages:- Slam bidding is damaged- Some 3NTs can go down with a minor suit game available Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted December 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 This will get a lot of posts, so I'd like to introduce a structure I used with a lot of success when playing a weak NT. It is based on the fact that when you open a 12-14 NT slams are not very common so focusing in playing the best partscore and best game without providing much information is a good strategy even when this costs a little on slamish hands. The second conclusion is that inviations usually cost imps, bidding game directly is better in the long term. So: 2c = to play (yes, you can play 2c when you open 1N!)2d = to play (yes, you can play 2d when you open 1N!)2h = to play2s = to play Over 2x responses with a maximum and fit (4 cards) opener can super accept. 2N = Game forcing with a 5 card major (now opener bids 3h with 3 cards and responder corrects to 3N with 5s or bids 4h with 5 cards, opener is always declarer)3c = Game forcing 5/4 or 4/5 in the majors. (now opener bids 4M with 4 cards, or the first 3 card major, same as before)3d = Game forcing 4/4 in the majors3h = Game forcing with 4 spades3s = Game forcing with 4 hearts3N = to play. Slamish hands start with 2N,3c,3d, 3h or 3s and then continue. Advantages: + You can play 2c and 2d, I've won a lot of imps with 2d making when 1N has no play.+ You don't give any information away+ Opener always plays the hand+ Very very preemptive, sometimes your game forcing bid is based on distribution and they can have a game without a way to enter the auction safely+ 100% easy to remember, no accidents with this structure. Disadvantages:- Slam bidding is damaged- Some 3NTs can go down with a minor suit game available Thanks Luis. Slam may not be of much concern, but as you said, losing invitation might be a problem. I think it occurs quite often that pd open weak NT and you want to invite. This method may be very effective in MP, when bidding game is not that important compared to IMP, esp. marginal game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 I noticed there are some players here playing weak NT, 12-14. and one level opening and rebid NT showing 15-16. I think this seems a nice treatment. What do you guys think are the best continuation after pd's weak nt opening? should we use xfer? any suggestion and comments? thx fly I think the modern style is to play the NT rebid as showing 15-17. Luis has some interesting ideas worth thinking about as usual. I play a fairly standard structure: Stayman and four-suit Transfers and Texas Transfers; With non-standard three-bids: Three-bids show four (or more if a minor) cards in the suit bid, a singleton in the other suit of the same rank and at least one four-card major. This is much better than bidding your singleton as you always have a 'cue-bid' of the short suit below game. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Luis - Assuming a 12-14 range and no invitational bids, how much do you need to go to game? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Luis - Assuming a 12-14 range and no invitational bids, how much do you need to go to game? Peter It really depends on distribution, intermediates, etc. With a 5 card suit you can bid 2x and if opener super-accepts go to game knowint that the hand fits well, that's one approach. With balanced hands our agreement was to bid game with 12+. With 10-11 and a five card suit we bid 2x and if pd super-accepts go to game. The general rule is that if you want to invite and you don't have a clear need for something in pd hand then you'd better bid game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Luis - Did you play this in matchpoints as well as imps, and if so how did it work? Would you recommend this for a 10-12 NT range? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Luis - Did you play this in matchpoints as well as imps, and if so how did it work? Would you recommend this for a 10-12 NT range? Peter For a 10/12 NT even better Peter, you have an advantage over a traditional NT structure since you can bid 2c/2d signoff and opener can compete to 3m if they bid a major, other will have to defend 2M even with an 8/9 fit in a minor. I only play this at IMPs, at MPs I copycat the field playing even SAYC if needed whenever I think my partnership can outplay the declarer play or defense of most pairs.But I think it can work well at MPs too I played this a couple of times and worked very wel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irdoz Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 I incorporated a weak no trump into a 5 card major 2/1 system in the last year. It has a number of systems implications 1. Systems over weak 1nt a) Variations of the one Luis mentions are quite common. One of these is documented at http://home.san.rr.com/amelucci/1NT.html. :) One we tried was 'two-under transfers' - so 2c transfers to hearts, 2d to spades, 2h to clubs and 2s to diamonds allowing one superaccept bid at low level for majors and 2 for minors (1st one a fit and 2nd one a fit and the sort of hand with primary controls suitable for a shot at 3nt). There's a lot more to this structure. c) For consistency we wanted 1h-1s-1nt to be 15-17 as well so were including most balanced 12-14 with 5 hearts in weak no trump and using puppet stayman (a method based around http://www.stanford.edu/~qsun/bridge/puppet.htm ) d) We play a lot of matchpoints and one problem with weak no trump, particularly in a 5 card major system, is playing in 1nt when you have a 4/4 Major fit that scores better. We thought about including ekrens in our system so at least weak 1nt hands that were 4/4 in the majors would be taken out of 1nt opens...but we didn't do this. Instead 1nt-2c-2d-2h shows a weak hand with 4/4 in the majors - and most weak nt'ers in a 5 card major system who play matchpoints use this... which means you can't use the structure in a) 2. System implications a) 1minor-1nt has a wide range - 6-10... this means you can end up playing a lot of 2nts (horrible contract) with 21-22 hcps. We opened most balanced 15-17's 1c and the 1d response to 1c included balanced 6-7 and balanced 11-12 (we made the 2nt response GF)..the direct 1c-1nt is 8-10. We restricted 1d balanced hands to 5 diamonds and found this worked very well...and played 1d-1nt as semi-forcing. :) 2-way checkback works much better playing this structure than nmf c) 1c-1nt wrong sides more 3nt contracts than it right sides. That together with playing a short club led us to adopt a version of walsh transfers to right side nt contracts and to play in 1M when responder had a weak hand also short in clubs, instead of a horrible 1c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Hi, I myself play variable 1 NT: NV 10-12 except 4th seat when it is 12-14, and Vul I play 12-14. When NV I open a suit and rebid NT it show 13-16, and when Vul it shows 15-17. After the 1 NT rebid I play 2 way NMF were 2 Cl is for all Invitational bids while the 2 D is 100% GF. Biggest thing y need to think about after opening weak NT is to make sure y have a runout system when Opps start X for penalty. I like to play Guaba, I think that's what is is called, not sure tho. It is simple after the penalty X, if y bid a suit directly is shows that suit and next higher, if y pass and opp passes pd has to reX, if y now bid a suit y have that suit and none touching suit, but y can also pass the reX to let pd know opps made a mistake. Or if y ReX directly y have single suited hand. Love the Weak NTMike ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 i like 10-13 in all vulnerabilities, 14-17 in 4th seat.. response structure is: 2c invitational (12-14) puppet, 4 card majors up the line if opener bids 2d2d, 2h, 2s, 3c to play2nt balanced game force (15+)3d minor suit slam try, opener bids: 3h shows 4 clubs OR honor third 3s shows 4 diamonds OR honor third 3nt shows neither3h, 3s unbalanced game force if 1nt doubled, pass forces rdbl, rdbl shows 2 suited w/out hearts, other bids are brozel type, suit bid with hearts.. same structure for 1nt (p) p (x) the reason for 2c being puppet is, all 10-13 balanced or semi-balanced are opened 1nt.. if suit opened then nt rebid, shows 14-16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 I just play all system normal after opening either my 10-12 or 12-14 nt; 4 suit trf, 3 level bids showing 5-5 hands, smolen, lebensohl, Texas.Why change ? I also play Minorsuit asking after pd's denies a 4 card major after stayman. I have this posted somewhere else on this forum. Works wonders, and simple. Mike ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 I just play all system normal after opening either my 10-12 or 12-14 nt; 4 suit trf, 3 level bids showing 5-5 hands, smolen, lebensohl, Texas.Why change ? I also play Minorsuit asking after pd's denies a 4 card major after stayman. I have this posted somewhere else on this forum. Works wonders, and simple. Mike ;D Why change? Percentages, that's why... Say you need 30HCP for slam (ok, it should be 31-32, but we're all good players here :D) and 24HCP for game. I've ran some monte carlo simulation (so these percentages are not 100% correct), and these are the results for 100000 hands: 10-12 = 12.4914+ = 19.9720+ = 1.43Game is about 32.46%, slam about 13.92% 12-14 = 9.8112+ = 34.8318+ = 3.99Game is about 44.64%, slam about 13.80% 15-17 = 4.799+ = 62.5115+ = 14.11Game is about 67.30%, slam about 18.90% See the difference? Note: I guess my slam percentages are a bit too high, but nevertheless, this gives you a good idea about the difference in opening mini-, weak- and normal NT. Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 I just play all system normal after opening either my 10-12 or 12-14 nt; 4 suit trf, 3 level bids showing 5-5 hands, smolen, lebensohl, Texas.Why change ? I also play Minorsuit asking after pd's denies a 4 card major after stayman. I have this posted somewhere else on this forum. Works wonders, and simple. Mike ;D Why change? Percentages, that's why... Say you need 30HCP for slam (ok, it should be 31-32, but we're all good players here :)) and 24HCP for game. I've ran some monte carlo simulation (so these percentages are not 100% correct), and these are the results for 100000 hands: 10-12 = 12.4914+ = 19.9720+ = 1.43Game is about 32.46%, slam about 13.92% 12-14 = 9.8112+ = 34.8318+ = 3.99Game is about 44.64%, slam about 13.80% 15-17 = 4.799+ = 62.5115+ = 14.11Game is about 67.30%, slam about 18.90% See the difference? Note: I guess my slam percentages are a bit too high, but nevertheless, this gives you a good idea about the difference in opening mini-, weak- and normal NT. FreeY just posted the reason why I love to play 10-12 and 12-14 NT's, the frequency of them happening is so much higher then a 15-17 or even a 14-17 NT that y r almost losing out by not playing Weak NT's. Mike ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Yeah, I played a marathon today, and our weak NT scored pretty good ;D V 15-17, NV 1&2 11-14, NV 3&4 10-13. No mini-NT for me, makes the ranges too high, and we already play lorenzo-2-openings (0-7HCP)... Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 At Vegas Nationals played a 11-14 NT for few days, did pretty good with it - for 2/1 I can't see 10-12, but can see 10-13 with 14+-17 for rebid of strong NT. Currently for KLPV13B2, 10-12 NV, 14-16 VUL with one flaw (with no flaws, good 15's and up go into 1C opening). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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