Negative double

[ruotal]

Hi all !

 

My partner open 1♣   and opps overcall 1♥

 

My hand :[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sj2hq4da10943c9875]133|100|[/hv]

 

 

I bid X . my thinking was : If my partner bid ♠ i will bid ♦   and he will know i was not able to bis at second level.

 

1) Am I right or better to pass

 

2) Is it a psychic ?

 

Ty

 

andré

[Adebisi]

I think its better to have agreement with your partner, that the dbl shows 4spades, or the dbl shows no 4+ spades and no heart stopp but 7+hcp or 1S shows 7+hcp without 4+spades and no H stopper and dbl shows 4+ spades:)

[cherdano]

In standard bidding, double just shows 4 spades. Think of it as a 1♠ bid. Doubling then bidding 2♦ doesn't undo your promise of 4 spades.

[P_Marlowe]

In standard bidding, double just shows 4 spades. Think of it as a 1♠ bid. Doubling then bidding 2♦ doesn't undo your promise of 4 spades.

It does.

 

How else to show a weak hand with long

diamonds, assuming you play that a new

suit on the 2 level is forcing?

 

It is the same with a normal takeout X,

the double promises support for the other

suits, but if you later bid a new suit, the

first message got canceled.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdano]

In standard bidding, double just shows 4 spades. Think of it as a 1♠ bid. Doubling then bidding 2♦ doesn't undo your promise of 4 spades.

It does.

 

How else to show a weak hand with long

diamonds, assuming you play that a new

suit on the 2 level is forcing?

 

It is the same with a normal takeout X,

the double promises support for the other

suits, but if you later bid a new suit, the

first message got canceled.

Nope. How do you want to undo this message when the bidding went 3H by opps, 3S by partner?

 

In this specific auction standard is X= 4 spades, 1S = 5 spades. Many play 1S = 4 spades, X = < 3 spades, takeoutish (or vice versa). I have never seen anyone play double= 4 spades, or not 4 spades.

 

You are confusing this with the situation when there are 2 unbid majors. Then negative double doesn't promise any specific suit (e.g. you will often do it with 4 of one major and 4 diamonds in the auction 1D-(2C)), and you can afford to throw some weakish major one-suiters into the mix.

[helene_t]

You might occasionaly make a negative double with 3 spades (if that's the smallest lie you can make up) but never with 2.

 

Just raise clubs. You don't want to be in 2♦ when partner may be short in diamonds. With a 2-2-6-3 and seven points you would have to pass. In fact, playing a 15-17 1NT you're allowed to pass with as many as 9 (10) points. Of course, it's better to bid something whenever you can.

 

Playing negative doubles, you might consider playing weak jump shifts in competition. Hence, you could have bid 3♦ with a 7-card or good 6-card. With that agreement, you will rarely have to pass with a decent hand unless you have length in the enemy suit.

[Echognome]

How else to show a weak hand with long

diamonds, assuming you play that a new

suit on the 2 level is forcing?

The obvious answer that springs to mind is the green card.

 

If you decide to bid later (I wouldn't on this hand), then you've now shown a weak hand with long diamonds!

 

I'd rather Fit Jump to 3♦ than to negative double with this hand. However, I'd rather still pass.

 

P.S. I wouldn't bid 2♦ even if it were a negative free bid.

[Flame]

double show 4 spades, if you dont have 4 spades - pass.

[P_Marlowe]

I just want to add one add. remark:

 

There exist another class of hand without

a 4 card spade suit, with which will make

a neg. X, which promises a 4 card spade suit.

 

I speak about hands in the 10-12 bal. range

without a heart stopper.

You can tell me that you pass, really (?! partner

reopens and you bid the cue, forcing your side

to the 3 level?),

You can tell me that you fake the heart stopper

(which is just another lie),

You can tell me that you bid 2H, asking for a

stopper, unfortunatly one standard meaning of

the cue in this sitaution is, that it is fit showing.

 

Depending on your general agreements,

(neg. free bids, weak jump shifts, fit jumps, strength

of the suit shown direct ...).

you have several hand type, which go through the

neg. X, because you cant show them direct,

... and one of those hand types is the hand holding

a 4 card spade suit, but there are other.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

In standard bidding, double just shows 4 spades. Think of it as a 1♠ bid. Doubling then bidding 2♦ doesn't undo your promise of 4 spades.

It does.

 

How else to show a weak hand with long

diamonds, assuming you play that a new

suit on the 2 level is forcing?

 

It is the same with a normal takeout X,

the double promises support for the other

suits, but if you later bid a new suit, the

first message got canceled.

Nope. How do you want to undo this message when the bidding went 3H by opps, 3S by partner?

How about 4D, and pass with a 3 carder in spade?

And yes, given any agreements, the auction can

explode in your face. There are always crossroads,

and sometimes you take the wrong one.

And yes, sometimes pass is best, and probably with

the given agreement and the given hand best.

 

But sry, but I dont talk about the specific hand, I seldom

do, because I am not really interested in specifc hands,

I simply say, that there situation, when your first message

gets canceled.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

I just want to add one add. remark:

 

There exist another class of hand without

a 4 card spade suit, with which will make

a neg. X, which promises a 4 card spade suit.

 

I speak about hands in the 10-12 bal. range

without a heart stopper.

You can tell me that you pass, really (?! partner

reopens and you bid the cue, forcing your side

to the 3 level?),

You can tell me that you fake the heart stopper

(which is just another lie),

You can tell me that you bid 2H, asking for a

stopper, unfortunatly one standard meaning of

the cue in this sitaution is, that it is fit showing.

 

Depending on your general agreements,

(neg. free bids, weak jump shifts, fit jumps, strength

of the suit shown direct ...).

you have several hand type, which go through the

neg. X, because you cant show them direct,

... and one of those hand types is the hand holding

a 4 card spade suit, but there are other.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Your argument that there is a class of hand that has no good bid, and that you would like to include in the negative double, has a certain attraction, but it is very, very far from standard... if you sit in a pickup game with an expert opponent, he will not understand your bidding if you double without 4♠s.

 

You CANNOT undo a double. Once you have announced 4♠, all other calls merely add detail to the hand... bidding ♦s next would be a game try or a slam try if partner has bid ♠s... NOT a denial of ♠s. KQxx xx AKxx Kxx

 

1♣ [1♥] x [3♥] 3♠ [p]? You are in the slam zone, so you'd probably cue 4♦ in the hopes of hearing a 4♥ cue.

 

I made that example up very quickly to demonstrate an example of a family of hands on which you need double followed by ♦s as agreeing ♠s.

 

Plus, of course, partner is going to value his hand, and choose his calls, and, should the opps buy the hand, his defence, based on your announcement that you own 4♠.

 

Does this mean that the hand you are concerned about (10-12 no ♥ stop, no 4card ♠ suit) is doomed?

 

In fairness, there will be times when that hand type will cause enormous problems. That is why a significant minority of players use the negative double of 1♥ to DENY 4♠s. They bid 1♠ with 4 or more and double to show fewer. That is a very playable method.. I know, because I play it in one partnership.

 

But I think that playing that the double either shows or denies ♠s is unplayable..... partner will go wrong far, far too often, and the later rounds of the auction, when you actually hold ♠s, will be very difficult, if bidding a new suit denies ♠s.

[awm]

It seems to me that the normal bid on this type of hand is to raise partner's minor. On the hand in question you can bid 2♣. Certainly there exists a small set of hands where diamonds will play better than clubs (say partner has 4-3-3-3 exactly), but doubling on this hand normally gets you to spades which is even worse than the club fit. And most of the time partner has four clubs, and 2♣ will likely play better than 2♦ (as well as avoiding misdescription of your hand). With a few high cards more (say in the 10-12 range) I would try 2♥ (strong club raise) again figuring that when partner has only three clubs his balanced hand is pretty likely to include some semblance of a heart stopper. Partner knows I sometimes raise clubs on four when I have no other appealing bid.

[SoTired]

There is a class of negative dbl without the other major to show a long minor and not enough strength to bid it freely.

 

BUT NOT THIS AUCTION. The common meaning of a negative dbl of 1H shows 4♠ and bidding 1S shows 5♠.

 

After interference, the game-force of a 2/1 is OFF. So with good diam and 10-12 HCP, you can bid 2D. With <10 hcp and <4♠ and no heart stopper, you must pass or raise opener's clubs. With 4♣ and 7HCP, I vote for 2C rather than pass. This may be the only chance you will get to show club support and some values.

[ruotal]

Hi all !

 

I forgot to say that we play 1♣ opening = 2 or more.

So the raise is out of question i think.

Thank you for all of the answers. It is helping me in my progression in bridge

 

bye

[SoTired]

1C = 2♣+ ... this hand shows a weakness of that treatment.

 

I would still raise to 2C. The odds are still 70% that opener has 4♣+