New sayc player-need advice

[simon435]

There is a little known local system called nottingham club played by many at my local club and they have 1♦ as 12-15pts, with no diamonds shown, just a point count.

[helene_t]

As for Precision, I recomend Kathy Wei's "Simplified Precision". It's very short and does not go into details.

[the hog]

In my limited experience I have found overcalls a problem and I have often had to pass on a hand I would have overcalled on with no qualms in acol, so any convention giving a wider range to hands open to overcall on would be especially useful.

 

Thank you in advance

Simon,

 

Defensive bidding in Acol differs markedly from that of SAYC. Playing Acol you generally double with any opening hand regardless of shape and all overcalls are generally less that opening hands. A direct cue bid in Acol usually shows 19+ hcp, any shape.

 

Playing SAYC, a double of ops opening bid is for takeout and promises at least 3 card support in the unbid suits. An overcall can be as light as 8 hcp at the one level to up to 16 hcp. Stronger hands (17+) are usually shown by first doubling and then bidding a new suit or raising partners takeout. Balanced 15-18 hcp hands with stops in ops suit are shown with a 1NT overcall. Some opening hands, especialy if you hold 5 cards in the ops bid suit, cannot be bid on the first round and must be passed. This calls for a technique known as Balance Bidding in the passout seat. Your partner will have to double or overcall sometimes with lighter than normal vaues to "protect" your passed hand.

 

To summarize, you can bid more hands if you employ the 2 suit showing bids (Michael's Cue Bid and Unusual NT) and if you master the techniques of balance bidding.

 

Good luck on your transistion from Acol to SAYC

 

Wayne

Wayne, I don't mean to be rude, really, but you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about at all. This is compounded by another comment in a later post that Acol was developed to combat Italian systems. Acol was developed much earlier than this.

 

There is NO DIFFERENCE between overcall structures in Acol, SA, 2/1, whatever you wish. We are here talking about a "style." Some people prefer light overcalls, others heavy. This is STYLE, not system.

 

To claim, as you do, that a cue bid shows 19+, is just WRONG. Look at records of Dodds, Meredith, Reese, Schapiro et al and you will see what I mean.

 

Helene the Hacketts do not play Acol. They play a system loosely based on "The Science". This was developed by a group of players in the Cambridge area. It is based on 4 card Majors if you are in the 10-14 range, with frequent canape, and a 14-16 NT. There are heaps of specialised responses to be able to cope with the canape bids. If you wish, pm me and I will send you some notes.

[Wayne_LV]

Hog,

 

All I know about Acol is what I was taught by several players from NZ and according to them there is definitely a difference between the overcall structure of Acol and SAYC.

 

Since there seems to be no real authority on what makes Acol Acol, I would have to say my sources are as reliable as yours.

 

And yes, they do play a direct overcall (1s-2s) as 19+, any shape. Coincidently that is the way a direct overcall was played in Standard American before the advent of Micheal's cue bid.

 

My posting to Simon was not designed to trigger an all out debate over the specifics of Acol vs SAYC systems -- and yes, they are systems, not attitudes.

 

I merely was sharing my experiences with partner's from NZ who made the transistion from Acol to SAYC. Perhaps they did not play Acol as it should be played, but they all played it the same way -- the way I described it.

 

And yes, I do think saying I do not know what I am talking about is RUDE. But not quite as rude as calling me Hyena Offal. You can surely contest that what I was taught is correct, but you sure as hell cannot deny what I say I was taught.

 

I may not be stating the methods used by "top" Acol players but I sure know what I was taught and what I played for some period of time. Bridge systems evolve and changes in bids and attitudes confuse the most experience players and I am sure this is confusing for any player starting out in the game or attempting to change bidding systems.

 

I cannot be sure, since Simon did not state how he played doubles and overcalls in Acol, but I suspect he may have been taught similar Acol defensive bids to those I was taught.

 

I would appreciate any links that might explain what makes Acol Acol. I have not been able to figure it out. It is not 4 card majors -- Goren taught those in Standard American for years. It is not weak NT -- Kaplan-Sheinwold uses the 12-14 hcp range for 1NT. It is not the way 2 bids are handled since they range from 8 tricks to Benjamine 2's to weak 2's as played in SAYC.

 

And now you tell me there is no difference in the takeout double and overcall requirements between Acol and SAYC.

 

So just what is Acol? And please, don't tell me it is just an attitude.

[hrothgar]

So just what is Acol?  And please, don't tell me it is just an attitude.

Hi Wayne

 

I've heard the "Acol is an attitude" line before. I think that its actually decent description, but only if you know the system pretty well. Personally, if I were trying to provide a very flip/succinct definition I'd focus on the notion of limit bids. In my mind, the major difference betwen Acol and Standard American 40 - 50 years ago was that the Brits had a lot more ways to limit their hands.

 

As you note: Bidding systems evolve significantly over time. A few years ago, if I agreed to play "Acol" with a Brit I would have assumed that we were playing the following:

 

12 - 14 HCP 1NT opening

 

4 card majors: Limit raises, non-forcing NT response, light 2/1s. With a 4432 pattern with a major and a minor, you tend to open 1m. With a 4441 pattern, you open the suit below the singleton

 

Acol 2H / 2S opening

 

Multi 2D opening

 

As I undestand matters, things have changed rather significantly. Its no longer safe to assume that players are using Acol Two bids, or even a multi 2D. Many people are now opening 1M with the 4432 patterns.

 

As fore the whole takeout double discussion. I do agree that there is a significant difference between the style of takeout doubles employed by North American players and those used elsewhere in the world. However, I don't think that this has anything to do with Acol. The takeout doubles used in North American tend to be much more "pure" with respect to allowable shape. The takeout doubles used in Europe (particulary the ones used in Italy) are a lot more flexible. Personally, I think that this is an evolutionary response to the fact that 5 card major based systems came to dominate in North American. In contrast, a lot of the Europe systems used 4 card majors and canape.

[DenisO]

A direct cue bid in Acol usually shows 19+ hcp, any shape.

 

When I learned Acol some 45 years ago that was the way the direct cue bid was played - you needed a rockcrusher and it was a game forcing bid. But that was stone age Acol and things have moved on a long way since then. In the UK I don't think even dinosaurs play it that way anymore :(

[DenisO]

Hi all thanks for reading...

 

I am a former acol converted to sayc after a few practise hands on BBO.  I am hoping to introduce it to my normal partner and possibly adopt it over acol but i could use some advice.  I have only ever played a very basic sayc online but if I was to play it with my partner I would hope to improve my knowledge of the system.  So therefore I ask you for any advice on playing sayc you can give me. 

The SAYC article by Sally Brock on this link is a good conversion kit if you are switching from Acol.

 

http://www.mrbridge.co.uk/library/library.shtm

 

Lots of other useful articles as well :(

[the hog]

"I would appreciate any links that might explain what makes Acol Acol. "

 

Get hold of a book by Reese and Dormer called "Acol Today". You may have to search as it is well out of print, but you can get it from specialised Bridge bookshops. It is old, but an excellent tome. Also get hold of Crowhurst's bookds on bidding to see how it has developed. You will also see that defensive bidding and constructive bidding are 2 separate entities.

 

Acol, like all systems has changed over the years. Originally it consisted of the following:

Variable NT

Acol 2 bids, (8 or so playing tricks)

Very light 2/1 bids

 

Now it consists of what people like to add, often:

2/1 forcing to 2NT

Weak 2s and a multi

12-14 NT throughout

However in all cases it has retained its 4 card Major structure.

 

How you can even say that it was designed to combat Italian methods is beyond me, as it was developed in a Bridge club in Acol Street years before Arno, Neapolitan, Roman and of course Blue Club ever came into existence.

[Wayne_LV]

How you can even say that it was designed to combat Italian methods is beyond me, as it was developed in a Bridge club in Acol Street years before Arno, Neapolitan, Roman and of course Blue Club ever came into existence.

 

I stand corrected. Not sure where I got that notion but the dates do not coincide.