New sayc player-need advice

[simon435]

Hi all thanks for reading...

 

I am a former acol converted to sayc after a few practise hands on BBO. I am hoping to introduce it to my normal partner and possibly adopt it over acol but i could use some advice. I have only ever played a very basic sayc online but if I was to play it with my partner I would hope to improve my knowledge of the system. So therefore I ask you for any advice on playing sayc you can give me. What conventions are commonly played with sayc and any interesting variations I might want to try. In my limited experience I have found overcalls a problem and I have often had to pass on a hand I would have overcalled on with no qualms in acol, so any convention giving a wider range to hands open to overcall on would be especially useful.

 

Thank you in advance

[1eyedjack]

Acol is not so bad a system, nor SAYC so good a system, that "conversion" from either to the other will result by itself in any noticeable improvement in results.

 

Nor is either system so well defined that you can expect to find the answer to all questions in the system summary, particularly in respect of competitive auctions.

 

Post some particular examples of problems that you encounter, and you will get a lot of helpful responses about how to cope - in either SAYC or Acol.

 

Or course, learning and practising both systems will only improve your understanding of the game, as well as increasing the population of potential partners.

 

A google search on SAYC may give you some pointers, but probably not I fear. The question is rather vaguely couched.

[ohioply]

Michaels and Unusual 2nt are nice to use for overcalls.

 

Michaels:

Ops open 1♣ you bid 2♣ to show both majors (5-5)

Ops open 1♦ you bid 2♦ again to show both majors (5-5)

Ops open 1♥ you bid 2♥ to show spades and an undisclosed minor (5-5)

Ops open 1♠ you bid 2♠ to show hearts and an undisclosed minor (5-5)

 

Unusual 2nt

Ops open 1♣ you bid 2nt to show the two lower rank suits - Hearts and diamonds (5-5)

Ops open 1♦ you bid 2nt to show the two lower rank suits - Hearts and clubs (5-5)

Ops open 1♥/1♠ 2nt shows both minors (5-5)

 

You should discuss with your parter whether this is the same treatment if not directly after an opening bid - if after ops respond or in 3rd/4th seat ect

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

if you want to play 5 card mayor with strong NT

in your regular partneship, I would suggest to

buy a system book.

Playing on BBO, you will rarely encounter a person,

who plays SAYC by the ACBL booklet.

It is the same with Acol, there are different flavours

around, quite similar, but different, when you dont

expect it.

 

One suggestion would be "Bid Better, Much Better (Std.American)"

by Ron Klinger, I learned to bid using "Bid Better, Much Better (Acol)",

and I assume that the bookabout Std. American may be similar worth

reading.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

I would strongly recommend the Audrey Grant series for playing with Americans, not because I particularly like the system or think they're great books, but it is what most Americans play.

 

I dislike Bergen raises, though they're worth learning, but I would suggest learning Forcing 1NT and Jordan 2NT, nice bids over 1 of a major.

 

Overcalls are just a flavor question- as far as I know, there's no systemic differences between ACOL and SA in terms of strength or shape.

[DJNeill]

Hi,

 

Standard American is only really bad if your partner is a standard american. There is no difference between acol and sayc overcalls, at least as far as general style. Find a partner who likes to overcall more and play with them.

 

Dan

[the hog]

Hi all thanks for reading...

 

I am a former acol converted to sayc after a few practise hands on BBO. I am hoping to introduce it to my normal partner and possibly adopt it over acol but i could use some advice. I have only ever played a very basic sayc online but if I was to play it with my partner I would hope to improve my knowledge of the system. So therefore I ask you for any advice on playing sayc you can give me. What conventions are commonly played with sayc and any interesting variations I might want to try. In my limited experience I have found overcalls a problem and I have often had to pass on a hand I would have overcalled on with no qualms in acol, so any convention giving a wider range to hands open to overcall on would be especially useful.

 

Thank you in advance

Hi Simon,

There is no difference between overcalling in sayc or Acol. What you may well have found is that most, (not all by any means), US players tend to be a bit more conservaive in their overcalling than others. There is a reason for this - they have been influenced by Roth-Stone philosophy, which places a much greater emphasis on very sound initial action - opening bids and overcalls. Many other players prefer a "quick in and out" philosophy. However there is NOTHING to say that you can't overcall light playing any system. Btw if your regular pd plays Acol, I would suggest sticking to this as I personally think it is a superior system to sayc. Now, Polish Club on the other hand....

[awm]

The "Learn to Play Bridge" software on BBO has some good examples of SAYC bidding.

 

The official SAYC document is available at the ACBL home page, and there's a reasonable book (with lots of examples) on SAYC bidding by Downey and Pomer.

 

The one major issue I've found with SAYC is some contradictory information about bidding in 2/1 auctions. In particular, say the bidding starts 1♥-2♦. The SAYC notes indicate that:

 

(1) 2NT can be a minimum.

(2) 2♦ can be a balanced invite.

(3) 2♦ bidder promises a rebid (so cannot pass opener's 2NT call).

 

These three things don't work out very well together. My recommendation (seemingly pretty universal among strong pairs using an SAYC base for their system) is that any rebid by opener in a 2/1 auction which is higher than the original suit opened promises values for game (i.e. around 15 hcp or up). So 1♥-2♦-2NT would show extras, as would 1♥-2♦-3♦, and a very minimum opening would have to rebid 2♥ (basically a catch-all) without values for game in this auction.

 

As for conventions, the nice thing about playing an SAYC-based system (rather than a 2/1 GF-based system) is that you need a lot fewer conventions to be competitive. The only one I feel is really essential is some form of new minor forcing (I recommend 2-way NMF myself). Another good treatment is using cuebids as limit+ raise in competition and direct jump raises as preemptive (in SAYC jump raises are limit). If you're looking for something a bit more complex (but quite useful) take a look at Rubens Advances of overcalls or give the Robson/Segal book on competitive bidding (available free as an e-book) a read.

 

Elianna and I play a system based on SAYC with a bunch of fairly major additions. More advanced conventions we've added (and like) include:

 

(1) Gazilli (opener's 2♣ rebid is natural or strong, opener's jump rebids are distributional).

(2) 2NT as limit+ instead of Jacoby.

(3) Opener's 2♦ rebid after 1x-2♣ as catch-all instead of 2M (as in Garozzo's relay structure, but we don't really use the rest of the structure).

(4) Meyerson defense to 1NT.

[KiwiBridge]

I also agree on the superiority of Acol. We play it with 12-15NT and 1♣ 1♦ openings always promise at least 4 cards (as do the majors of course). SAYC is ok, but the crutch of 5 card majors convolutes the bidding.

[mcphee]

I need a definition of "normal parnter" please

[helene_t]

SAYC is a rather well-defined system, allthough most BBO-players who put "SAYC" on their profile don't adhere to it in details.

 

SAYC includes the following conventions:

- Blackwood

- Jacoby transfers (on in competion)

- 2♠ over p's 1NT as a weak take-out in a minor

- Jacoby 2NT in response to a major suit opening

- Strong 2♣ opening with 2♦ as an artificial, neutral response.

- Fourth Suit Forcing (hopefully forcing to game, otherwise I would make that agreement with p anyway)

- (As for Gerber and splinters I'm not sure)

I would add

- support doubles

- Drury, if you like to open light in 3rd seat.

- some defense against opponents 1NT opening, for example Landy or Lionel. Certainly not Cappeletti which is one of the worst conventions ever invented.

- Maybe New Minor Forcing or some similar checkback mechanism.

[simon435]

Thanks all for you help you've deffinitely given me something with which to work with especially from helene's post very useful thanks. For mcphee "normal partner" means the partner I play with at club level, i.e. not on BBO.

 

Thanks again everyone for your comments and any more are welcomed. To all those who say acol is superior to sayc thank you, i may very well find that to be true but it does no harm to widen my horizons.

 

Thanks again for all your comments.

[Wayne_LV]

In my limited experience I have found overcalls a problem and I have often had to pass on a hand I would have overcalled on with no qualms in acol, so any convention giving a wider range to hands open to overcall on would be especially useful.

 

Thank you in advance

Simon,

 

Defensive bidding in Acol differs markedly from that of SAYC. Playing Acol you generally double with any opening hand regardless of shape and all overcalls are generally less that opening hands. A direct cue bid in Acol usually shows 19+ hcp, any shape.

 

Playing SAYC, a double of ops opening bid is for takeout and promises at least 3 card support in the unbid suits. An overcall can be as light as 8 hcp at the one level to up to 16 hcp. Stronger hands (17+) are usually shown by first doubling and then bidding a new suit or raising partners takeout. Balanced 15-18 hcp hands with stops in ops suit are shown with a 1NT overcall. Some opening hands, especialy if you hold 5 cards in the ops bid suit, cannot be bid on the first round and must be passed. This calls for a technique known as Balance Bidding in the passout seat. Your partner will have to double or overcall sometimes with lighter than normal vaues to "protect" your passed hand.

 

To summarize, you can bid more hands if you employ the 2 suit showing bids (Michael's Cue Bid and Unusual NT) and if you master the techniques of balance bidding.

 

Good luck on your transistion from Acol to SAYC

 

Wayne

[han]

Nice thread!

 

Standard American is only really bad if your partner is a standard american.

 

I need a definition of "normal partner" please

[1eyedjack]

Playing Acol you generally double with any opening hand regardless of shape and all overcalls are generally less that opening hands. A direct cue bid in Acol usually shows 19+ hcp, any shape.

Hyena offal

[WrecksVee]

SAYC is a rather well-defined system, allthough most BBO-players who put "SAYC" on their profile don't adhere to it in details.

 

SAYC includes the following conventions:

- Blackwood

- Jacoby transfers (on in competion)

- 2♠ over p's 1NT as a weak take-out in a minor

- Jacoby 2NT in response to a major suit opening

- Strong 2♣ opening with 2♦ as an artificial, neutral response.

- Fourth Suit Forcing (hopefully forcing to game, otherwise I would make that agreement with p anyway)

- (As for Gerber and splinters I'm not sure)

I would add

- support doubles

- Drury, if you like to open light in 3rd seat.

- some defense against opponents 1NT opening, for example Landy or Lionel. Certainly not Cappeletti which is one of the worst conventions ever invented.

- Maybe New Minor Forcing or some similar checkback mechanism.

I must add that if you make any changes or additions it is no longer SAYC. SAYC is a specific set of agreements that the ACBL put together to make a common CC in some tournaments.

 

No reason it can not be used as a base on which things are added: SAYC plus... or SAYC except for... I assume "full SAYC" means something along these lines.

 

As this thread pointed out there are some poor methods in SAYC. But if you fix them with one partner how does the next casual partner know? The point of SAYC is to be the classic set of "bad agreements" that are better than no agreement.

[Wayne_LV]

Playing Acol you generally double with any opening hand regardless of shape and all overcalls are generally less that opening hands.  A direct cue bid in Acol usually shows 19+ hcp, any shape.

Hyena offal

My experience with Acol has largely been playing Colonial Acol with Benji Twos's as played in New Zealand and what I stated is precisely how they play it.

 

Offensive bidding consists of 4 card major openings (all 1 of suit openings bids show 4+ cards in the suit), Weak NT (12-14), Weak 2 bids in majors, strong 2c and stronger 2d.

 

I have played both Acol and SAYC with the same partner on many occasions in the past, but we have recently played SAYC exclusively. We simply do not get as good results with Acol as with SAYC.

 

I think the texture first general approach of SAYC vs the points first approach of Acol is partly the reason. Further I think the weak NT is good only vs weak opponents. Good ops will rarely let your preemptive 1NT get in their way and if you get to play 1NT vulnerable and go down 2 tricks you will have lost a lot of IMP's.

 

Acol was developed in London many years ago with the main purpose of combating the Italian Blue Club System that dominated the bridge world for a time. I think, due to the design of the Acol system, it is probably more effective vs a strong club system than it is vs SAYC or 2/1. Acol thrives on the cheap overalls afforded by a strong 1 club opener. Those cheap overcalls are not as plentiful when playing against a Standard American based system. Further, to be successful with Acol, both partners must play the hand extremely well since you often find yourself in game with 12 opposite 12.

 

The above has been my experiences with Acol. I am sure others have very different experiences.

 

Wayne

[helene_t]

Wayne, what you're talking about is style, not system. It's possible that Acol players on average overcall more aggresively than SAYC-players, just like Acol players are on average younger, more likely to be male, more likely to psyche and more likely to be blond than SAYC players. That doesn't make the aggresive overcalls part of Acol.

 

I also find it difficult to believe that modern Acol teachers teach their students to dbl on just about any hand that has opening strength. Even if most of them do, it doesn't make that style part of Acol.

 

Another issue is if the light openings that are popular in England can be considered part of Acol in the sense that if you agree with a pick-up partner to play "Acol" it, by default, implies that you open lighter than SAYC players would do. I think this is the case, since the more non-forcing bids available after a 2/1 make it easier to handle light openings.

[Wayne_LV]

Wayne, what you're talking about is style, not system.

Helene,

 

I am sure you are correct. I learned Acol from a group of Kiwis I played regularly with on the MS Zone. Most of them were "Open Players" or the equivalent of A players in the ACBL, so I assumed what they taught me was standard fare for Acol. Since then I have learned there as as many variations of Acol as there are variations of Standard American.

 

Are there any top players at the World level now that still play Acol?

 

It is a fun system to play since there seems to be fewer "rules" than S/A and the mind seems to be freer to "think and visualize" holdings of partner and ops and less dependent on a preset bidding structure.

 

Regardless of the system, partnership agreements seem to be the most important aspect of any system.

 

Wayne

[helene_t]

Are there any top players at the World level now that still play Acol?

 

It is a fun system to play since there seems to be fewer "rules" than S/A and the mind seems to be freer to "think and visualize" holdings of partner and ops and less dependent on a preset bidding structure.

 

Regardless of the system, partnership agreements seem to be the most important aspect of any system.

I think the Hacket brothers still play it when they play together, though I've seen one of them playing Precision in another partnership.

 

Yes, I agree that Acol is more fun than SA. Though Precision is fun and effective as well, just my personal opinion :-)

 

Yes I also agree that style is the most important thing to discuss in a partnership. Much more important than staring oneself blind on all kind of silly conventions, lol.

[simon435]

This may not be the right forum for it but can someone explain precision to me, just the basics. Could anyone give me a web address for an overview of the system and if possibe a good book on it. I'm intrigued but know nothing of it, thank you.

[awm]

The idea behind precision is to make the 1♣ opening strong and artificial (instead of the more standard 2♣ strong and artificial) and to lower the requirements for this bid to 16+ hcp (instead of 21+ or 22+ for the standard 2♣). This has a couple of benefits:

 

(1) All your other opening bids are now limited to 10-15 or so, because you didn't open the strong 1♣ bid. This means partner can pass more often, opener's jump rebids can be used to show very distributional hands (because you don't need them for the strong hands anymore) and so forth.

 

(2) You start the bidding with strong hands at the lowest possible level, giving you a lot of room to explore.

 

The main disadvantages:

 

(1) You can't open 1♣ with clubs and a minimum anymore, since it's the strong artificial bid. The usual way around this involves opening 2♣ (natural and 10-15 or thereabouts) when you have five or more clubs, using 2♦ as an artificial opening showing a three-suiter with short diamonds (like 4414) and opening a weakish 1NT (12-15 or so) on the remaining hands.

 

(2) Some of the benefits of opening the strong hands with 1♣ are lost when the opponents jump into the auction.

 

The classic book on precision is by C.C. Wei, and is probably still available from Amazon. There are a number of follow-up books discussing various modern treatments and modifications.

[simon435]

Thank you awm, you're right c.c. wei "precision bidding system in bridge" is available from an amazon seller. Thank you.

[jtfanclub]

The classic book on precision is by C.C. Wei, and is probably still available from Amazon. There are a number of follow-up books discussing various modern treatments and modifications.

If you're a SA player, I'd also suggest the Reese and Goren books- both classics, and both look at it from a Standard American perspective. I'd suggest that all players should read one of them, even if they plan to never play Precision.

 

Most forms of Precision have a 'weak' NT opener, usually within the 12-15 range. Many forms of Precision have the 1♦ opener including hands fairly short in diamonds (such as 3-4-2-4) but don't fall within the range of 1NT. Most forms of Precision have the 2♦ opener includes hands which are 4-4-1-4, usually in addition to some other shapes.

 

I don't know that the 1♣ opener is really considered a benefit. The idea is that you should win more when your hand is in the 11-15 range, than you lose when it's in the 16+.

[KiwiBridge]

My experience with Acol has largely been playing Colonial Acol with Benji Twos's as played in New Zealand and what I stated is precisely how they play it.

 

I would suggest that players on MS Zone are not really bridge players, nor do they play Acol.

 

Many top NZ players play Acol, but not the Benji version, which has long since lapsed into history. Nor do they make takeout doubles with any random hand.