What do you bid?

[ewj]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=s98xhqjxdj8xxcxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

There are three passes around to partner and he opens 1C.

[You're playing 4 card majors by the way].

RHO bids 1S, you pass and LHO thinks for ages and bids 2NT, which is described as a good raise.

Partner now doubles, and RHO bids 3S, which is passed round to partner, who doubles again.

What's your action?

[Finch]

4C.

[helene_t]

Pass is the LOTT bid if partner has five clubs and one spade. 4♣ is the LOTT bid if he's void in spades or has a 6th club.

 

I think his double of 2NT was penalty-oriented, so I'll pass. If he had passed 2NT and doubled 3♠ I would bid 4♣.

[Apollo81]

4♣, insurance against partner having 0445 shape. If that's true then 3♠ and 4♣ both might make. Could be turning a plus into a minus; willing to accept that.

[gwnn]

now that I passed this many times, it would be a shame to ruin that streak.

 

:)

 

(no, seriously, my hand is awful, I shan't introduce it on the 4 level, pd can dbl all he wants)

[Halo]

4D

 

I think partner wants me to bid, and I have a diamond suit. I am really tempted to bid 5D, since it's IMPs and partner shouldn't be messing about without very good reason.

[ArcLight]

I'll bid 4♣, expecting to go down, but its insurance against a big pay off for the opps.

 

If I had an entry or two I might pass and lead trumps.

The big problem is I might not get in to lead more trumps and cut down on ruffs.

I don't see a source of tricks for the opps, except by ruffing. Unfortuneately I can't stop that. 3♠ Doubled making would be rather unfortunate.

[mikeh]

4♣

[keylime]

4♣. This is not looking good in defending this doubled.

[Guest Jlall]

3N scrambling :)

 

Surprised someone hasn't said it...but just for the record I'm being sarcastic :o I'd go with 4C as well.

[kenrexford]

I understand that I am looking at three small spades. I understand that most doubles are high-offense-to-defense doubles. It just irks me that, with so many alternatives, you cannot double 3♠ for penalty.

 

The alternatives are much more than obvious when 2NT is fit-showing and partner is willing to force a four-level call opposite my repeated indications of weakness, including:

 

Bidding 3♠ after 2NT

Bidding three of a red suit after 2NT, then doubling 3♠

Doubling 2NT and then bidding 3NT

Doubling 2NT and then bidding 4♣

Passing, and then doubling 3♠ (or bidding 4♣)

 

I just cannot understand why in this auction the second double is not penalty, unless pass...X is the penalty option.

 

(Couldn't 2NT also have been a mistake?)

[ewj]

Fair enough.

I passed, expecting partner to have 1 and maybe even two trumps, which was probably a bit optomistic of me. I thought he could have bid 3S over 2NT with a hugely offensive hand.

 

My partner had

 

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=shaktxdat9xcakqjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

and I think we could make 6C, both minors broke 4-1, although the hearts were 3-3.

[cherdano]

I understand that I am looking at three small spades. I understand that most doubles are high-offense-to-defense doubles. It just irks me that, with so many alternatives, you cannot double 3♠ for penalty.

 

The alternatives are much more than obvious when 2NT is fit-showing and partner is willing to force a four-level call opposite my repeated indications of weakness, including:

 

Bidding 3♠ after 2NT

Bidding three of a red suit after 2NT, then doubling 3♠

Doubling 2NT and then bidding 3NT

Doubling 2NT and then bidding 4♣

Passing, and then doubling 3♠ (or bidding 4♣)

 

I just cannot understand why in this auction the second double is not penalty, unless pass...X is the penalty option.

 

(Couldn't 2NT also have been a mistake?)

I think passing-then-doubling should be penalty. The immediate double of 2N should be takeout, because there are many hands with takeout shape that might not be able to force to the 4-level.

 

Passing 2N then doubling 3S is a bid like doubling in the auction 1D-(1S)-P-(2S)-P-(P)-X. Since you couldn't make a takeout double one level lower, the double one level higher if usually played as showing a penalty pass I believe (not sure that I would risk it with a pickup partner though).

[cherdano]

Fair enough.

I passed, expecting partner to have 1 and maybe even two trumps, which was probably a bit optomistic of me. I thought he could have bid 3S over 2NT with a hugely offensive hand.

I would expect a long club suit (a running one, ideally) for a 3S bid, asking for a spade stopper.

[Guest Jlall]

As far as why this double should not be pen, partner already Xed for takeout. He could not do this with a penalty X since his partner might bid (since it's a takeout X). Partners X showed some extras, and now his second X is showing a lot of extras but it doesn't change the meaning from takeout to penalty. Partner might convert to penalties on a hand that couldn't X 3S for penalty (since partner had not shown such significant extras yet, ie QJ9x xxx xxx xxx).

 

I cannot understand how this auction could be played as penalty.

[david_c]

As far as why this double should not be pen, partner already Xed for takeout.

You seem very sure that double of 2NT is take-out. I agree this is the best meaning, but if it was undiscussed I would have taken it as "values". I'd have passed like Ed did.

[Halo]

Knew I should have bid game.

[Guest Jlall]

As far as why this double should not be pen, partner already Xed for takeout.

You seem very sure that double of 2NT is take-out. I agree this is the best meaning, but if it was undiscussed I would have taken it as "values". I'd have passed like Ed did.

Values is very vague. Values and what type of hand? Well if he had a good hand with a 2 suiter, he'd bid his suit. If he had a 1 suiter he'd rebid his suit. If he had 18-19 balanced with a doubleton spade he would X (but thats still a takeout shape). What about 18-19 balanced with 3 spades? Should partner get involved? Probably not, the opps have overcalled and shown a good raise and partner couldn't bid over 1S. This is similar to the problem of what to do when they overcall and cuebid and you have 18-19 with some length in their suit. Usually you just let it go since you're not going anywhere. Partner may have "values" but I'm sure he is also willing to compete and thus has some spade shortness.

[Guest Jlall]

Knew I should have bid game.

I'm sure partner is going to bid game with that monster if you bid 4 of a minor over his 2nd X. A lot of flat 0 counts produce a game.

[Halo]

Knew I should have bid game.

I'm sure partner is going to bid game with that monster if you bid 4 of a minor over his 2nd X. A lot of flat 0 counts produce a game.

Yes, very reasonable.

 

Why 4C from so many? Why is the 53 fit better than 44 - nobody suggested less than 4D. He doesn't have to be solid clubs and diamonds with gaps.

[pclayton]

A good agreement is that any double of an artificial raise by opener is takeout of the major. You can extend this reasoning to the double of a Bergen Raise as well.

 

If pard wanted to suggest playing 3S x'd, he could have passed 2N and hit 3S on the way back. Never mind the fact that our xxx of spades suggests the double is takeout anyway.

 

Therefore, even without firm agreements, the double of 2N is takeout, and the double of 3S is still takeout, but stronger still. I would not have expected a hand as strong as Ed's partner, but the pattern looks right.

 

I am very close to pass and 4C and I would certainly pass at MPs. If pard has the hand I think, we have a lot of defense in the red suits and 3S will not be a lot of fun. At IMPs, I take a little insurance and bid 4C.

 

I don't like the suggestion of 4D. While pard might have 4D's, he also might have only 3 with a 1=4=3=5 powerhouse, and the Moysian will be a problem, even with the short hand taking the spade tap.

[SoTired]

Why 4C from so many? Why is the 53 fit better than 44 - nobody suggested less than 4D. He doesn't have to be solid clubs and diamonds with gaps.

4C.

 

The 2nd double is takeout. If you make a takeout dbl and partner passes and you double the same suit again, it is still takeout, only with more strength.

 

The 2N bid is a good spade raise. So the initial double is takeout. Opener is not doubling a natural 2N bid. Opener is doubling a spade raise. Now the 3S bid is passed around to opener who doubles it again. Clearly takeout. Looking at 3♠ and knowing that opener has, at most, 1♠ makes the takeout meaning all the more obvious. How can opener want to punish the opps with a singleton spade?

 

Why not 4D? Because opener could be 1435. I don't think responder could have much less, so if opener wants to bid game, opener will have to bid it herself.

[000002]

the advocacy of 4♣ competition is a little crazy.

 

the DBL --2nt promise 5loser and good 7playing tricks,u can uphodling 1 to 2,but no 3 clearly,with total 8 cards trump,easy to beat 3♠ than making 4♣.

for instance:

X

AKxx

Axx

AQxxx

if 3♠ is a makable contract,4♣ certainly down 2!

 

Take ur calm,master-s!

 

:)

 

regards 000002

[mikeh]

Knew I should have bid game.

I'm sure partner is going to bid game with that monster if you bid 4 of a minor over his 2nd X. A lot of flat 0 counts produce a game.

Yes, very reasonable.

 

Why 4C from so many? Why is the 53 fit better than 44 - nobody suggested less than 4D. He doesn't have to be solid clubs and diamonds with gaps.

No reason for him to be 0445: yes, that is a possible shape, but so is 1=4=3=5 or, an extreme case, 0=4=3=6. 4♣ has to be the logical call here.

[ewj]

I didn't think double was penalty at all, I just didn't think he would have such a shapely hand for his double.