Finch Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 The verb "to rant" is used in English (at least, in England) to mean "to go on at length about something you find irritating or annoying but aren't actually going to do anything about." There is no real point or value to a rant other than to make you feel better. Common topics, round here at least, are- South West Trains- Road humps and other traffic "calming" measures- Heathrow airport- The dreadful customer service of <large organisation of your choice> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer So 2♠ is forcing (since no upper range given) even though it could have just 5 HCP? Or are you just describing P-1♥--2♠ and there is a different description for 1♥-2♠ (unpassed hand)? If 1♥-2♠ is 5+HcP, 4+♠ etc., what is 1♥-1♠? Is your description of 2♠ perhaps the description of a 1♠ response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer So 2♠ is forcing (since no upper range given) even though it could have just 5 HCP? Or are you just describing P-1♥--2♠ and there is a different description for 1♥-2♠ (unpassed hand)? If 1♥-2♠ is 5+HcP, 4+♠ etc., what is 1♥-1♠? Is your description of 2♠ perhaps the description of a 1♠ response?The book is not so very clear. Therefore I added 3♠. 2♠ therefore normally means 5+♠ and some perspectives. It is no preempt but invite. Holding a weak hand you try to stay low bidding 1♠ or the preempt. The book does not inform much about passed hand bidding in offensive - it is more clear about that for defensive. This makes good sense because you will often play defensive playing Blue Club. It is a passive system - hope you understand this term. The text I have in FD for 1♥-1♠/1♥-2♠ is exactly the same: 5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 The text I have in FD for 1♥-1♠/1♥-2♠ is exactly the same: 5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer If one describes 1♥-1♠ with the exactly same meaning for 1♥-2♠, this is clearly not full disclosure to the opponents (even if the partnership would just deliberately and randomly decide between the two bids, they should provide that info). So at this point, we can conclude that while "the explanation is completely according to book", the book is not complete, and thus just providing these descriptions would not result in "You have been informed of your opps". The one exception would be if the opponents were using that book, and so were just providing the description as given in the book, without having noticed or thought about that 1♥-1♠ was exactly the same as 1♥-2♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 The text I have in FD for 1♥-1♠/1♥-2♠ is exactly the same: 5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer If one describes 1♥-1♠ with the exactly same meaning for 1♥-2♠, this is clearly not full disclosure to the opponents (even if the partnership would just deliberately and randomly decide between the two bids, they should provide that info). So at this point, we can conclude that while "the explanation is completely according to book", the book is not complete, and thus just providing these descriptions would not result in "You have been informed of your opps". The one exception would be if the opponents were using that book, and so were just providing the description as given in the book, without having noticed or thought about that 1♥-1♠ was exactly the same as 1♥-2♠.Yes - Blue Team systems were 30-40 years ago more well-known. Today people seems to have a different approach to features and quality in bridge. That I have chosen the same FD text for the 2 continuations means nothing else than I am unable to see the correct interpretation which may differ from the stated one. Therefore I informed you of how to interpretate. The 2♠ is mostly an invite for trump but as 4+cards is may also be a balanced invite. Here you need to bear in mind the frequent cue continuations and slam approach. Those are special to Blue Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 I played against a table with 10,000 masterpoints playing 2/1 on Sunday in a qualifier. The auction went (with us passing throughout). 1♦ 1♥1NT 3NT I was later very surprised to find out that opener had 4-3-4-2 distribution, and they got an overtrick from it. I play this style: a 1♠ bid by opener shows an unbalanced hand. Trust me, i know all the arguments against the style, but it works (for me and my partners, at least). However we alert the 1N rebid, as well as the 1♠ rebid. I don't actually know if the alert is mandated and, until i get told otherwise by a director, I will continue to alert... I too play this style. Bidding 2 suits for me also shows an unbalanced hand - at least some 5422 shape. Jtfanclub, I am surprised that you are surprised, as this is very common practice. Hmmm...not common practice where I'm from. Given the local flavoring, I was not expecting it. I certainly did not mean to imply that I don't like the method- I do, especially if 2 of the other minor is effectively checkback (1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣ asks about spade length). Stephen- nice catch there, thanks. So calling the director would have (or should have) been pointless. How odd that it's no longer alerted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 The difference between 1♠ and 2♠ seems to be that 1M is 3+ cards.After 1♦, if 1NT shows 10-11 HCP, what can you bid with 6-9 HCP and no 4card Major? e.g. with (32)35You need to bid a 3 card major so that partner can bid 1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 The difference between 1♠ and 2♠ seems to be that 1M is 3+ cards.After 1♦, if 1NT shows 10-11 HCP, what can you bid with 6-9 HCP and no 4card Major? e.g. with (32)35You need to bid a 3 card major so that partner can bid 1NT.No - it is more the opposite way. You are allowed to pass with 0-7HcP, 3+cards. Please remember even it is a passive system it is still limit openings. This means you try to stop unless you see perspectives. This is the reason why 1♦-1♥ can be a 3carder. You have something similar in polish pass systems - Regres and Suspensor. 1♦♥♠-1NT=6-7HcP, Signoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 If I ever play against you remind me to pull out the local home-brewed club system. it's got a name, it's called seismic club. I'll be sure to tell you ahead of time that we are playing it, but will, intentionally, fail to announce or explain any of the bids. Let's see how you'll like it. I mean, it's standard seismic club... you should know it...For that you will never get away with me without alert + explain everything not included in your pre-alert. why not? our bids are all standard seismic club and publicly accessible through the web, i believe, so you should be familiar with the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 1♦=12-16HcP, 3+♦. Canape' style - may have longer1♦-1♥=5+HcP, 4+♥, Round. Canape' - may have longer1♦-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer Please re-read starting posting first example. We are looking for FD of 1♥ opening opposite a passed hand, and the FD of the P-1♥--2♠ bid. Could you please provide these two FD examples.http://bridgefiles.net/Picture/BOOK-BlueClub.jpg Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed. 1♥=12-16HcP, 4+♥. Canape' style - may have longer1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer1♥-3♠=Preempt Let me just check back here to make sure I have this right. Third hand opens 1H, promising four hearts and opening values. His partner, looking at five high card points and four spades, bids 2S. Are there hands on record where they actually did this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Looks rhetoric to me Ken. In case your question really is serious the options for 5HcP, 4♠ are: Pass, 1♠, 1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Claus, I almost didn't post the question because I agree it sounds like rhetoric, or argumentative, or something bad. I did not intend it so. I was looking at: Copy:Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed. 1♥=12-16HcP, 4+♥. Canape' style - may have longer1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer1♥-3♠=Preempt End copy Now I don't know what "round", in this context, means. I was surprised that the 2S response, as well as the 1H opener, was Canape style but I browsed a little on the web and I get the impression that this was really the case. Possibly this is the explanation of 2S on four cards? A responder with, say, five points, four spades and six diamonds responds to 1H with 2S, planning to run to diamonds if doubled. It seems a bit crazy to me, but no one ever confused me with Garozzo so I'll keep an open mind. It does seem clearly stated that 2S over 1H promises 5+ hcp and 4+ spades. My understanding of the + sign is that it means they may or may not have the plus. One encounters situations like this from time to time. An explanation appears so bizarre that it seems there must be some misunderstanding. But then, maybe they mean it. It's difficult to ask a question that does not sound argumentative. Assuming the "1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer" is not a typo, I am curious as to how it was used and how it worked. Maybe "round" means one round force? On 5 hcps it seems odd, especially since canape means only "may have longer", not "does have longer". Finally, and I admit this is a bit argumentative since you are an FD advocate, I have found this to be a frequent problem with FD. The written explanation makes good sense to the practitioners but it is not so transparent to the reader. If the above FD entry does not say that the 2S bid might be made on four cards and five points, how am I misreading it? I applaud the efforts of bbo to go beyond the wholly inadequate old bbo cc, but I think the FD idea still needs some work. Best wishes,Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Claus, I almost didn't post the question because I agree it sounds like rhetoric, or argumentative, or something bad. I did not intend it so. I was looking at: Copy:Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed. 1♥=12-16HcP, 4+♥. Canape' style - may have longer1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer1♥-3♠=Preempt End copy As is often the case, two separate issues are being confused here: 1. What do the auctions 1♥ - (P) - 2♥ and P - (P) - 1♥ - (P)2♠ show playing Blue Club? The first auction is decided not a canape sequence. This is a strong jump shift in the Blue Club style, promising a good hand with a self sufficient suit. Blue Club conciously differentiates between suits like AKJT963 - suitable for a strong jump ***** and KJT9762 - typically shown via a canape reverse by responder. (Responder would temporize with a 2♣ or 2♦ over the 1♥ opening, and then show Spades to indicate game forcing values with a broken suit. My books on Blue Club don't go into detail about passed hand bidding, so its hard to say precisely what the second auction would show. Personally, I think a fit jump makes the most sense. 2. The second issue that needs to be discussed is whether the FD strings that Claus suggests represent appropriate disclosure. I think that the text strings themselves are inaccurate. I certainly can't construct a hand that would jump to 2♠ on 4 card support.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Ken - first please remember bridge is a game about MAJORs. Whether you hold them or not. This important point is all too easy to forget playing standard systems. All strong systems are based on that and try in different ways to cope with this. Some systems are created in that way your openings discloses a fairly exact holding of majors. This means something about your question 4♠+6♦. First to the resources: The system book is: Benito Garozzo/Leon Yallouze: The Blue ClubContainment of this book I have extracted into files ready to use available from bridgeFILES web-sites. http://bridgefiles.net/Picture/BOOK-BlueClub.jpg There are 2 big books containing a wide range of examples:Pietro Forquet: Bridge with the Blue TeamBenito Garozzo/Pietro Forquet: The Italian Blue Team Bridge Book http://bridgefiles.net/Picture/BOOKBlueTeam.jpg Round is my term for forcing, others use the notation F1/F2 - same meaning. As I stated earlier 1♥-2♠ is an invitation(8-11HcP, normally 5+♠). Holding 5HcP to partners possible MAX(16HcP) you want to find a safe spot for a part score. What you bid depends therefore of your expectations coming from partner. If your holding is 2♥ you keep the bidding open. Bid 1♠ and pass partners ♥ rebid. If partner comes up with ♣ you introduce your ♦. If you cannot stand 2♥ as a contract you close the auction via pass/1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 There are 2 big books containing a wide range of examples:Pietro Forquet: Bridge with the Blue TeamBenito Garozzo/Pietro Forquet: The Italian Blue Team Bridge Book As I stated earlier 1♥-2♠ is an invitation(8-11HcP, normally 5+♠). Holding 5HcP to partners possible MAX(16HcP) you want to find a safe spot for a part score. What you bid depends therefore of your expectations coming from partner. Claus: Do you bother to read the books that you cite? Page 56 of "The Blue Club" by Garozzo and Yallouze provides a description of the auction 1♥ - 2♠. The bid is clearly defined as game forcing. There is even an example hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Wait. The discussion seems to wobble back and forth between 1H-2S and pass-1H-2S. I assume the latter is not game forcing. It's too tough to trace back what the discussion was supposed to be, but it was the passed hand auction I was referring to. Anyway, I'll say maybe one more word there. I realize that pass-1H-2S usually shows more than four spades, just as I realize that the major suits are important. (I'm not Garozzo, but ...). But there was this post, I am pretty sure it was from Claus, presenting what I took to be an FD card devised by him based on the Blue Club, that said after a passed hand, 1H-2S showed 4+ spades and 5+ points. Anyone interested, , probably no such person exists, can page back and see that this is not my hallucination. I referenced it twice so far asking about it and have been told, basically, that no one bids 2S on such a hand. Right. I believe that. I guess the answer, in the words of a former WH press secretary, is that the FD statement is no longer operative. This thread is getting far too confusing for me. I am glad to hear, if I indeed am hearing, that Garozzo and all did not jump shift to 2S on five points and four spades. At any rate, as I am sure my partners will be glad to hear, I won't be doing it. I am abandoning this thread while I still have a semblance of sanity. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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