4th seat

[gwnn]

For those of you who don't know it, let me clarify the "rule of XX":

 

Sitting in 4th seat, add the number of your spades to the number of your HCP. If that number reaches XX, open the bidding.

 

4th seat preempts are excluded from the scope of this survey (maybe 6 nice hearts, 12 HCP) - please assume you want to open this hand on the 1 level in a rather standard system.

[mike777]

I just wish I knew what a one bid in second seat in a "standard expert" style looked like. :rolleyes:

 

I am not joking.

[Elianna]

I don't like any of these options. I'd vote for "any opening hand, plus any hand that meets the rule of 15".

[pbleighton]

"I don't like any of these options. I'd vote for "any opening hand, plus any hand that meets the rule of 15". "

 

Yeah, except that I pass the marginal openers with short spades ;)

 

Peter

[Winstonm]

Form of scoring has a lot to do with it - I tend to pass out much less frequently at MPs.

[Mr. Dodgy]

I voted '12'. I wish there was an '11'. I'll open almost anything even slightly better than average in 4th without much regard for #♠s.

[cherdano]

I don't like any of these options. I'd vote for "any opening hand, plus any hand that meets the rule of 15".

My vote is "any opening hand, plus a few slightly sub-min openers that satisfy the rule of 15".

[SoTired]

Heard them called "pearson points" and "casino points". I like "casino points".

My current style which I can be persuaded to change:

1st, 2nd, I usually open all 12's, some 11's (singleton), a few 10's (void). In 4th seat, I open 14 casino points with 3-4♥ or 15 casino points without. Except if I have a good 6-card suit, then I ignore casino points and open a usual opening bid. The following show some minimums:

• xx AQxx KQxx Jxx - 1D - 14 casino points, 4♥
  
• xxx xx AQxxx AQxx - 1D - 15 casino points without hearts
  
• x AQxxxx KQx xxx - 1H or 2H depending on partnership agreement. Not passing up a nice 6-card suit
  

[hotShot]

If the dealer passes usually the other axis has the majority of points in 2/3 of the cases. So you need to score plus.

If you have 10/11 HCP in 4th seat, you will often find your partner with 11 HCP and a flat hand.

 

Contracts on 1/2 level can often be made with 18+ HCP, sometimes helped by opps unlucky lead.

 

The number of spades you have is irrelevant, you should open with (10)11 HCP in 4th seat whenever you have a decent distribution.

[brianshark]

I play any decent opening hand (13+) or 15 Pearson points.

[brianshark]

Of course the number of spades you have is relevant. If you have shorter spades, then the spades rate to be distributed fairly evenly among the other 3 players, thus the opponents are statistically more likely to have a spade suit, and therefore even if we have 22 points, they rate to end up playing in 2♠ or something. And as you said, it's easy to make 1/2 level contracts even on 18pts with a fit.

[hotShot]

Of course the number of spades you have is relevant. If you have shorter spades, then the spades rate to be distributed fairly evenly among the other 3 players, thus the opponents are statistically more likely to have a spade suit, and therefore even if we have 22 points, they rate to end up playing in 2♠ or something. And as you said, it's easy to make 1/2 level contracts even on 18pts with a fit.

The number of spades is irrelevant.

 

Is holding 3 spades short? I don't think so.

But partner holds 3.33 on average so opps usually don't have a fit.

 

You hold 2 spades: than it is 11 for the other 3. So each player including your partner has 3.66 spades meaning that 66% of the time opps don't have a spade fit. So you lose 2/3 times by passing.

 

Not short enough?

Suppose you have 1 spade, so opps have a spade fit on average, but with bad trump break and with the minority of HCP, so if they overcall they are likely to go down. So what should keep you from bidding? If partner has ♠ values he can bid NT on the same level or you can penalty double 2♠. If your partner does not have 4♠, your opps have a 9 card fit and you will have a 9 card fit or 2 8card fits. So if your partner has no NT bid and no double for 2♠, your side does not have wasted walues in ♠ and following the Law of Total Tricks you can push the bidding bidding to the 3 level.

 

Suppose you hold no spade:

If opps bid ♠ they are playing against partners 5 card suit and your side has half of the HCP. Wonder if opps like horror films......

 

Again if your partner has good ♠ values he can overbid NT or you will double. If his ♠ are not strong enough for that, remember that if opps have a fit (and it is almost sure they have a ♠ fit) you have a fit somewhere else and partner does not have a lot of wasted ♠ values. So you will make about any 1,2 and some 3 level contracts you like. The longer opps spades are, the better you combined hands will work together.

Again there is no need to be scared.

[pclayton]

What amazes me about the magic number 15 is that these folks would pass hands like:

 

♠void, ♥AKQxxx ♦KQxxx, ♣xx and the like.

[awm]

I agree with Elianna. I will open any hand in 4th seat which I would open in 1st/2nd seat. The interesting question is the "3rd seat openings" which I would normally pass in 1st/2nd seat. In those cases only I tend to use the rule of 15.

[mikeh]

Any hand that would open in 1st or second is an opening bid in 4th.

 

As for any numerical rule, I do use the rule of 15, but it is only one of a series of factors. If the hand is not a real opener, then I may open the hand if it complies with the rule of 15 provided that I have no rebid problem.... typically I have some ♠ length on these hands and will often be opening a (4+) 1♠... will I be happy to pass a 1N response...semi-forcing? I don't have to worry about dealing with a 2minor response, because I play 2 way drury... in fact I play 2 way drury in part to prevent a 2♦ response!

 

And as always, I treat hands with controls more aggressively than hands with Quacks.

 

BTW, the decision can be influenced by basic system: in my regular partnerships, a second seat 1N is either 11-14 (one partnership) or 10-12/15-17 depending on vulnerability. It becomes a lot easier to pass out borderline hands, short in ♠s, when partner has denied a balanced 10 or 11 count.

[inquiry]

I too open opening hands in 4th seat.. it really isn't a novel idea. As for Pearson points, see this thread... Pearson Points

[whereagles]

If you play light openings, there's a case for not opening some 11-12 hcp hands in 4th seat, which you would open 1st 2nd.

[SoTired]

OK... I read some of the Pearson Point thread. Very long. How about a BOTTOM LINE. Only conclusion I read was Open all opening bids. And 14 PP is a better guideline than 15 PP. But do PP even count? How about 10 HCP with a 3♠. Something you open 3rd seat. Do you open it 4th seat. BOTTOM LINE on the 23 million hand study please.