Bid this hand

[zasanya]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sj4h103d4caq1098642&s=sakhaj762dakj63c5]133|200|Scoring: IMP

How will you bid these hands?[/hv]

A hand from a team match on bbo.How would you bid with your favourite P?

[mike777]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sj4h103d4caq1098642&s=sakhaj762dakj63c5]133|200|Scoring: IMP

How will you bid these hands?[/hv]

A hand from a team match on bbo.How would you bid with your favourite P?

1H=1NT...cannot bid a direct 2c or 3c or 4clubs :P

3D=4C

4D=5C

P

 

I try very hard to not put down a 7+ card suit as dummy.

[whereagles]

1♥ 1NT

3♦ 5♣

pass

[inquiry]

Oh the misiry....

 

2NT - 3NT

4♣ - 5♣

Pass/6♣

 

 

2NT = club preempt or strong two suiter with hearts and either spades or diamonds.

 

3NT = I want to play 3NT opposite a preempt, or I am weak/strong with club suit and want to play in clubs...

 

4♣ = opener passes with any hand with a club preempt. So first off, 4♣ never shows clubs. Here it shows an unknown two suiter willing to stop in 4♣ opposite a bust hand with lots of clubs. ((edited... misdescribed the precise meaning of 4♣ initially))..

 

5♣ = my suit is clubs, and I want to play in game in clubs despite the misfit (a red suit bid after 3NT would be essentially slam force, as if opener has strong hand and responder wanted to play 3NT, well, then Grand slam is likely).

 

Pass/6♣ - At this point, 6♣ is a possible bid by south. He could have a club void and he could have a lot less controls for this auction. Surely North must be planning on winning at least 6 trick in clubs (6 clubs plus AK, A, AK is 11 tricks), so a diamond hook or a 7th club or even a spade ruff, might be enough for slam. I am not certain, however that I would bid 6♣.... but I would seriously consider it....

[Codo]

1 ♥ 2 ♣ I am strong enough for 2/1 in Sayc)

2 ♦ 3 ♣

3 ♦ 5 ♣ (4 Club had been stronger)

6 ♣

 

Ok 5 Club is safer, but maybe 6 Club is better.

[P_Marlowe]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sj4h103d4caq1098642&s=sakhaj762dakj63c5]133|200|Scoring: IMP

How will you bid these hands?[/hv]

A hand from a team match on bbo.How would you bid with your favourite P?

Hi,

 

1H - 3C (1)

3D (2) - 4C (3)

5C (4)

 

(1) My partner asked to switch from strong

jump shifts to weak jumpshifts.

(2) natural

(3) 8 card suits have a name: "trumps"

(4) so be it

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[awm]

1♥ - 2♣ (1)

2♦ - 3♣ (2)

3NT - 5♣ (3)

6♣ (4)

 

(1) Not necessarily GF

(2) Invitational only, NF

(3) Preference, very non-forward-going

(4) Likely hands include KQJTxxxx of club (i.e. any decent 8-card club suit that isn't solid, without a sure side entry); with so many controls we're cold for slam opposite that.

[the hog]

Auctions have been suggested to 5C which are reasonable auctions. All I can say about the 2C bidders is that they are masterminding after seeing all the cards. This is NOT a 2C bid, even in Acol.

[awm]

Actually I've responded 2♣ on many occasions with a six-card club suit that looks like it might run. 2♣ is my normal bid on a balanced 11 or a nice 10. I've bid 2♣ on eight-counts before with a really nice suit that isn't even eight-long (AKJT9x and out at one point I think).

 

Keep in mind that we play 3♣ strong and 1NT non-forcing. A hand like this one has play for game opposite as little as:

 

xxx

AKxxx

Axx

xx

 

which is not really an opening bid in our style. And 2♣ is not game forcing; in fact I expect to be allowed to play 3♣ opposite most hands in the 12-14 range with a singleton club for example.

 

Evaluating hands with a lot of shape is tricky. I've seen partner make a 2/1 bid with a 5-5 nine-count before, because her hand would be difficult to describe after bididng 1NT. In general playing "non-GF 2/1s" gives us more freedom to bid our suits and then get out of the auction if there's an apparent misfit. I wouldn't say this is masterminding -- it's just our style. Take away a club and I'd bid 1NT like everyone else, but with a good eight-bagger I like to bid it. ;)

 

As another point, suppose your partner opened a 12-14 1NT opposite this hand. Do you think you could make game? I would bid game. If I think I can make game opposite 12-14 balanced, I start with a 2/1 bid, keeping in mind that it's not game forcing and relatively easy for me to play 3♣ if partner has a misfit (i.e. unbalanced 12-14 short in clubs).

[Halo]

1H - 5C

 

?

 

Probably pass from South.

[mikeh]

Wow. Everyone reaches the best spot... or nearly. You guys are too tough for me.

 

1♥ 1N forcing

3♦ 4♣

4♦ 4♥

 

whoops... missed the ♣ suit ;)

 

This is not a good hand for 2/1 gf, obviously. I strongly disagree with those who say that the North hand is worth 2♣ in 2/1. As to whether it is worth a 2♣ response in a different method, I leave to others more familiar with such... I have not played other than 2/1 in a serious partnership in 20+ years...

 

Having inflicted the 1N, the 3♦ jumpshift is obvious.

 

The next issue is what does 4♣ say?

 

It is forcing, since 3♦ committed us to game. And it is natural: one should not use this as any form of advance cue-bid: you can set a red suit as trump and still cue the ♣A below game on auctions where that is relevant.

 

South has an automatic 4♦ bid to show the 5th card.

 

Now what does N do? I learned a long time ago that one should rarely, if ever, lay down an 8 card suit in dummy unless it is trump support, but not all mantras are always applicable.

 

Surely 4♥ is the right bid here, assuming you have not seen partner's hand?

 

You know that 4♥ has t obe a playable spot, and what is there about your hand that makes you think that 5♣ is better? Or that slam is reasonable?

 

There are a multitude of hands on which partner holds a void in ♣s, making ♣ contracts dubious, and where 4♥ rates to be cold. Plus, 4♥ making 4 or 5 wins compared to 5♣ making 5 even at imps. This is a minor factor, but not completely trivial.

 

Give partner Axx AQJxx AQJxx void and submit this to a bidding poll: or KQx AQJxx AKJxx void or even AQ AJ98x AKJxx x and play 6♣ on the marked ♠ lead.

[pclayton]

1♥ - 3♣

3♦ - 4♣

4♠ - 5♣

Pass

 

1. 3♣ = Invitaitonal; OK to upgrade with 8 bagger

2. 3♦ = Forcing

3. 4♣ = What else?

4. 4♠ = Gag; I'll cue in case pard is semi-solid clubs

5. 5♣ = sorry Charlie.

 

LOL: just noticed that some are treating this as anything from a WJS to a 2/1. ;)

[pclayton]

1H - 5C

 

?

 

Probably pass from South.

This is a pretty reasonable approach.

[P_Marlowe]

Wow. Everyone reaches the best spot... or nearly. You guys are too tough for me.

 

1♥    1N forcing

3♦    4♣

4♦    4♥

 

whoops... missed the ♣ suit ;)

<snip>

Hi Mike,

 

the main problem with your given seq. in a 2/1

system, i.e. a forcing NT is, that 4C may or may

not be interpreted as a cue in support

of diamonds or hearts, this depends to a large degree

on the meaning of responders 3H / 3S / 3NT / 4D

rebids.

More likely than a hand with long clubs is the

bal. hand 10-12 or the limit raise with hearts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

Not sure why thinking 4clubs in not natural is a problem, if you have no other way to show a weak or int hand with long clubs which I do not. I could just bid 3h or 4d if I got support and not try and make a confusing cuebid. ;)

1h=5c is close but why not let partner show her hand?

 

Again how bad can playing in an 8-0 fit at the five level really be? Sure I can go down but 5clubs seems like a pretty middle of the road choice after 4d by partner.

[the hog]

Wow. Everyone reaches the best spot... or nearly. You guys are too tough for me.

Its pretty easy when you can see both hands. Thats the problem with questions like this. Actually I am beginning to think Halo's sequence of 1H 5C is best.

[HeartA]

1♥ - 3♣

3♦ - 4♣

4♠ - 5♣

Pass

 

1. 3♣ = Invitaitonal; OK to upgrade with 8 bagger

2. 3♦ = Forcing

3. 4♣ = What else?

4. 4♠ = Gag; I'll cue in case pard is semi-solid clubs

5. 5♣ = sorry Charlie.

 

LOL: just noticed that some are treating this as anything from a WJS to a 2/1. :)

I would bid the same.

[zasanya]

You know that 4♥ has t obe a playable spot, and what is there about your hand that makes you think that 5♣ is better? Or that slam is reasonable?

 

There are a multitude of hands on which partner holds a void in ♣s, making ♣ contracts dubious, and where 4♥ rates to be cold. Plus, 4♥ making 4 or 5 wins compared to 5♣ making 5 even at imps. This is a minor factor, but not completely trivial.

 

Give partner Axx AQJxx AQJxx void and submit this to a bidding poll: or KQx AQJxx AKJxx void or even AQ AJ98x AKJxx x and play 6♣ on the marked ♠ lead.

TY SIR.You saved some of my pride.Playing power precision me and my P reached 4♥.After the following auction.

1♣=16+----1♦0-8

1♥=relay(either 20-21 bal or natural 5+♥-------1♠ relay denying certain hand patterns like 0-2 6card suit /7-8 balanced/semi-solid 6+card suit.(I think I should have bid 3♣ instead of 1♠)

3♦=strong 2 suiter------4♣= natural

4♦-------4♥

The other table a reasonable pair bid 3nt on the following 2/1 auction.

1♥-1NT-3♦-3♥-3NT

♥ broke 4-2 ♦5-2 ♣2-2.We gained 3 imps.Most of the posters would have gained much more . :)

Ty all

[whereagles]

This is NOT a 2C bid, even in Acol.

It used to be a 2♣ bid in the old days of widespread 4-card majors, before people realized this sort of hand could better handled via 1NT followed by 3♣.

[mcphee]

Incredible to see so many reach 5C. I know I wouldn't.

1H 1N

3D 4C could not bring myself to bid 3H and not show C

4D 4H

 

I think bidding past 4H to 5C is a grave error in judgement. With the hands shown the 5C bidders are a bit lucky, 6C bidders are dreamers as this is just horrible to even consider. (how lucky pard not only had a trump but covered BOTH S losers when he might have held Kx S [yum yum].

[pclayton]

Is it really so tough to rebid an 8 bagger a 2nd time than to take preference with 10x?

 

The bromide about putting down an 8 card suit in dummy holds water again.

[inquiry]

Incredible to see so many reach 5C. I know I wouldn't.

1H 1N

3D 4C could not bring myself to bid 3H and not show C

4D 4H

 

I think bidding past 4H to 5C is a grave error in judgement. With the hands shown the 5C bidders are a bit lucky, 6C bidders are dreamers as this is just horrible to even consider. (how lucky pard not only had a trump but covered BOTH S losers when he might have held Kx S [yum yum].

While I agree in principle that that bidders who reach 6♣ (and I might be one) are bidding double dummy (as suggested by you and mikeh, two well respected gold stars), it certainly is not impossible. For one, I see little wrong with 1H-5C to play as an auction (suggested by two posters). And I am not sure I would pass 5♣ on that auction with south’s hand.

 

I do, disagree with the auctions that start 1H-3C (no matter what 3C shows), and 1H-2C in 2/1 GF, and I am far from convinced the shown auctions using those starting bids are accurate. I think Mikeh's auction with a 3D jump and rebid, and a begruding preference to 4H is probably right for 2/1 (if not 1H-5C), but I think you also have to realize most bridge players have heard the old adage about never putting down an 8 card suit as dummy, so someone insisting on playing in clubs is not unexpected, even non-double dummy.

 

On the other hand, a few gadget methods do exist. One Gadget I like is something Mikeh has referred to as a "kludge" is a strong (4 losers or less) two suited opening bid. I think the auction I showed would in fact be used at the table in a non-double dummy way, and it has an advantage of allowing us to play in 4♥ if the heart suit was better or the hand stronger. That is, on the misiry auction (misiry is the name given my kludge convention), if opener was stronger (2 losers say), or if opener hearts were better (3 losers, self-sufficient hearts), over the 3NT bid he would not tamely bid a passable 4♣.

 

I have avoided talking much about misiry the last year or two, because I beat it to death some time ago, and had to endure numerous "kludge" like comments from people. I guess the last long post on misiry would be the Misiry Challenge. This days, I only refer to misiry when a post, like this one, ask an open ended question on how you would bid it in your favorite system (or with your favorite partner, which i the same thing). To remind us, the misery auction was

 

2NT - 3NT

4C

 

where 2NT was either a club preempt or strong two suiter with hearts and either spades or diamonds as the second suit.... 3NT was either natural to play opposite a preempt in clubs, or a hand that wants to play in clubs opposite any strong two suiter (by implication, less than 3 hearts btw if weak with clubs…. The 3NT bidder might not get to play in clubs however, as the 2NT hand is unlimited in stegnth, and could be 7-6 or possibly even 8-5). 4C was conventional and said, I have a two suiter with hearts, but am willing to play in clubs should that be your intention (not insisting on one of his own suits). (Note with a club preempt, of course you pass 3NT).

 

With 8 clubs AQT9 opposite what is generally at least 5 controls and often more, I can't imagine north either passing 4C or bidding to play in the possible 5-2 heart fit when south was willing to play in clubs (if necessary). And south, with so much more than promised, certainly has to entertain bidding slam, for north really probably shouldn't ahve two club losers on this misfit auction.

 

6C bidders are dreamers as this is just horrible to even consider. (how lucky pard  not only had a trump but covered BOTH S losers when he might have held Kx S [yum yum].

A final note, in the misiry auction it is not north who bids the slam hoping south has spade stoppers, it is SOUTH who is looking at both his trump and his covers in spades (and diamonds and hearts) would have to make that decision. It is also worth noting, that every other person (codo, awn) who "bid to 6C" had south also making the final decision to bid the slam, so their souths were also looking at a trump and the spade stoppers as well. So this comment is not quite fair.

 

I would take it that getting to clubs, and 6♣ (if that is the final contract) using misiry would represent t his hand as being another example suitable for the challenge (good or bad) if the expert standard is to play 4♥.

[mikeh]

Is it really so tough to rebid an 8 bagger a 2nd time than to take preference with 10x?

 

The bromide about putting down an 8 card suit in dummy holds water again.

not when you can see both hands :)

 

I don't doubt that a number of posters would truly reach 5♣ single-dummy: but when I see EVERYONE reaching a ♣ contract, and several of them a slam, then I am morally certain that some, at least, have fallen victim to magic bidding: bidding as if we can see all the hands... :)

 

No-one, other than mcphee, has yet commented on the substantial probability that the typical S hand will afford very little play for a high level ♣ contract..while being almost cold in 4♥. Anyone who insists they would reach a ♣ contract without so much as discussing (in an objective fashion) that issue is a little short on credibility as far as I am concerned. I gave a couple of examples of such hands...all the ♣ bidders seem to assume that NS can actually see each other's hands.

 

Even I would reach ♣s on that basis :)

 

As for 1♥ 5♣, with all respect, I think that is ridiculous... another double dummy solution that has as its only merit recognition of the implausibility of the other auctions that end in ♣s. While the go-slow approach is unlikely to result in a good auction, it has a heck of a better chance than blasting 5♣ over 1♥.

 

If the poster had bid 5♣ over 1♥ and then asked who was to blame when dummy hit with Q10x AJxxx KQJx x or KQxx KJxxx AQJx void etc, I am sure that the finger of blame would be 100% pointed at North, yet, because S has the freak he has, we find all kinds of posters advocating insistence on ♣s.

[neilkaz]

Lots of strong opinions on this hand and I am in major disagreement with some of them. To me this is not that difficult a hand and the main decision playing my typical 2/1 w/Bergan raises is whether we play 5 or 6♣.

 

After 1♥ I respond 1NTF intending to show an invite with a jump to 3♣, but opener surprised me with a GF 3♦ jump shift. I now bid 4♣ natural and opner patterns out with 4♦. Next comes 5♣ from me and opener obviously knows that I have a bunch of ♣ and looking at 5 Tricks he has a decision to make, but I'd wimp out and pass 5♣ with my stiff and min game force.

 

WTP ? .. neilkaz ..

[bid_em_up]

As for 1♥ 5♣, with all respect, I think that is ridiculous... another double dummy solution that has as its only merit recognition of the implausibility of the other auctions that end in ♣s. While the go-slow approach is unlikely to result in a good auction, it has a heck of a better chance than blasting 5♣ over 1♥.

 

If the poster had bid 5♣ over 1♥ and then asked who was to blame when dummy hit with Q10x AJxxx KQJx x or KQxx KJxxx AQJx void etc, I am sure that the finger of blame would be 100% pointed at North, yet, because S has the freak he has, we find all kinds of posters advocating insistence on ♣s.

Besides.....isnt 1♥-5♣ exclusion keycard for ♥ (for those of us who play it)?

 

Which takes this out of the equation anyway.