pbleighton Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 "Many forget that this was Iraqi law not our own that was used." Oh, please. As I have said, he was an evil butcher, but: He was tried at U.S. behest, by U.S. puppets, in a show trial (one of the judges was dismissed for being insuffiently pro-conviction), and he was held in U.S. custody until the Iraqis decided to execute him. Thought experiment: if he had been acquitted, would we have released him? No way. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 The watercooler generally runs with far less supervision than the other forum, but it isn't usenet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sceptic Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 In Thailand a few years back they had a shoot to kill policy for car theft (apparently and I have no proof this is true, but having been to thailand and knowing quite a few thais as friends I see no reason to believe this never happened) They had to stop it because a woamn phoned the police up and reported her car had been stolen, just after she had a row with her husband NOW would she deserve the death penalty ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Any country which has the death penalty can hardly lay claim to be a civilized country. Ok....what do you do with people who kill people in jail? Just wondering. ~~ good question, mike... if there were any answers they got lost in personal attacks, which makes them hard to find Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Any country which has the death penalty can hardly lay claim to be a civilized country. Ok....what do you do with people who kill people in jail? Just wondering. ~~ good question, mike... if there were any answers they got lost in personal attacks, which makes them hard to find Jimmy, I have known you for a long time and think you are a nice guy, but this comment disappoints me. You attempt to restrain these people, perhaps in some form of solitary confinement. Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 "Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies." Ron, I agree with your conclusion, but I would state the reason a little differently: Examples matter, and in a democratic society the examples set by the government are paramount. Capital punishment sends a very clear message: killing people you hate is an acceptable way to solve problems. It is no coincidence that the U.S. is nearly alone among economically advanced democracies in our retention of capital punishment, and also has a homicide rate an order of magnitude higher than our economic competitors. And as for the foreign policy correlations.... Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 How is it that such intelligent, utopian oriented individuals have generated such a dystopian society?....It's not so much that we aren't intelligent enough its just that we have ingrained in our "survival" instinct to always try to achieve consensus (safety in numbers) which ends up providing the lowest common denominator.... Cars and industries that don't pollute? People who are treated with dignity no matter what their origin or status? A thought process that centers on humanity rather than on comparison? We are all able to do so, it is just a matter of choice and time.....if we still have enough of both left.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 I couldn't agree with you more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 The death penalty does not deter murder - it prevents repetition of murder; therefore, the death penalty assumes further murderous acts, which is not validated statistically. The death penalty is simply retribution - if you believe in retribution you would support the death penalty; if you believe in punishment, you would be more likely to support life sentences without parole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sceptic Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 Capital punishment sends a very clear message: killing people you hate is an acceptable way to solve problems. Capital Punishment is not about hating people you sentence to death, I did not hate Saddam Hussain, but I consider that he deserved to die Life sentence without parole is this not as bad as a slow death, you have taken away all hope and that is as bad as killing someone Hope is one of the things that makes the world go round, take away peoples hope and you kill that person and slowly kill that society Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 Jimmy, I have known you for a long time and think you are a nice guy, but this comment disappoints me. You attempt to restrain these people, perhaps in some form of solitary confinement. Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies.ron, i think you may have misunderstood my post... i'm against the death penalty, but that's a personal choice... my beliefs have nothing to do with my post, though... mike asked a question and got an ad hominem attack, which in anyone's book is a bush (no pun intended) league tactic not conducive to any discussion... i've had many disagreements with different posters, but i'd challenge anyone to show personal attacks i've made sometimes people make the mistake of thinking that things i post are my personal beliefs, but i'd say it runs 50/50... i can argue a point from both a personal and philosophical perspective, and don't often differentiate between the two (even when there is a difference) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 Ok Jimmy, you are quite right. I didn't think it was a personal attack on anyone, but I did think you were supporting a comment made by Mike which I really thought was somewhat offensive.My apologies once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 Ok Jimmy, you are quite right. I didn't think it was a personal attack on anyone, but I did think you were supporting a comment made by Mike which I really thought was somewhat offensive.My apologies once again. no apology necessary, ron... happy new year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 Life sentence without parole is this not as bad as a slow death No it isn't. It might depend on the coniditions in the prison, but life sentence with no parole in a typical Western European prison or execution? I know which I'd take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 I don't know. I am mostly opposed to the death penalty...but now and then I find myself wanting to get rid of some heinous people. Forever! People who seem to add pure misery to the world. Saddam is one, so good riddance. I am happy he's gone forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onoway Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 I used to be against the death penalty..for one thing too many people are found guilty and later found to be innocent and the death penalty makes that particular wrong a bit difficult to correct in any meaningful way. That said, I now am ambivilent if not pro execution for people who are PROVEN in a true court of law to have behaved in such a fashion as to make it questionable whether the accused has any capacity to be trusted to behave in a "civilized" fashion. I am thinking specifically of people who rape babies (it happens, believe it or not) and that level of antisocial behaviour. To me, anyone who behaves in such a fashion has virtually rejected his right to be called human and should be executed like any other rabid animal. However, I also think that should there be any doubt whatsoever, there should be some sort of failsafe where people who are found guilty could be put into some sort of cold storage...I read some time ago about an anesthetist who was investigating various natural drugs used in various cultures, including those used to create a state where the person was in a state of suspended animation, so to speak..able to see and hear but unable to move. it seems to me that should such a situation be available it would be a much more terrifying and preventative prospect for the person comtemplating murder or such...be a whole lot cheaper to run than most prisons are now, and in the event of a mistake the person could be restored to some sort of life. Admittedly, it sounds science-fictionish, but how much more so than instant communication throughout the world through the internet? as far as Saddam...he lived by the sword, so to speak, so if you play in that sandpatch..unfortunately Bush is also playing in that sandpatch and it seems unlikely he will ever be called to account in this world for his actions. Even people whose parents were killed by Saddam acknowlege it was not a fair trial. It is unfortuante that someone who claims to be trying to bring the world to democracy seems to have so little faith in democracy and the rule of law actually working..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 I read some time ago about an anesthetist who was investigating various natural drugs used in various cultures, including those used to create a state where the person was in a state of suspended animation, so to speak..able to see and hear but unable to move. There's a thought....we put them into this state and then auction off their body parts until they die from "natural" causes - like liver failure (in this case the failure to have a liver any longer.) However, another part of the post is a good question - is there a point with sociopaths when they could be deemed sub-human? Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez come to mind as two convicted serial killers with no consciense and no remorse - without this aspect of "humanity", were they still human? Just for the record, I am mostly anti-death penalty but can see in the case of repetetive behavior where it might have some impact and stop future crimes - in the case of Ted Bundy, he escaped jail in Colorado only to murder again in Florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onoway Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 well I would be sorry to think that everyone would jump to the same gruesome possibilities as you did..I certainly never suggested any such thing as auctioning off body parts...would be a bit difficult to restore a person to society in the event of wrongful conviction if you had chopped them to bits for the highest bidder. a question..would you WANT to have Ted Bundy's liver? or anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 "a question..would you WANT to have Ted Bundy's liver? with some fava beans and a nice Chianti....??? BTW, I wasn't saying you suggested any such thing...just some dark humor on a dark (but important) subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 until they die from "natural" causes - like liver failure (in this case the failure to have a liver any longer.)Like the Monty Python sketch:A: G'day. are you mr Smith? We're here to remove your liver. According to the organ donor registration you agreed to donate your liverB: But that was in case of my death !?!?!?!?!?!?A: Don't worry, nobody has ever survived having their liver removed would you WANT to have Ted Bundy's liver? or anything else?Yes. Have you seen the Chinese "Bodies" exhibition? They expose real human boddies and body parts, from the entire vascular system (with everything else removed) to thin slices of a human body, preserved in some hi-tech way (don't know the details. It's really facinating. Most things your not allowed to touch. But they had a leg muscle, a kidney and - yes - a liver which you were allowed to touch. The liver and the kidney were rather hard, the leg musscle more like soft rubber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 However, another part of the post is a good question - is there a point with sociopaths when they could be deemed sub-human? Semantics, seschmantics. Whether the death penalty is a good thing is one issue. How a Homo Sapiens should be defined is another issue. It's a surprisingly common falacy to think that the two are related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 However, another part of the post is a good question - is there a point with sociopaths when they could be deemed sub-human? Semantics, seschmantics. Whether the death penalty is a good thing is one issue. How a Homo Sapiens should be defined is another issue. It's a surprisingly common falacy to think that the two are related. good point, helene... i for one would hate to be accused of being an anti-semantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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