Use of Full Disclosure in ACBL tournaments

[barmar]

IMO, unless you're playing a system prescribed by others (e.g. an indy where everyone is required to play SAYC), you should not be permitted to review your own CC. One of the skills that I feel bridge challenges players on is the ability to tailor their system to their mental skills, and this is an important part of the game.

[csdenmark]

I don't think it's to stop cheating. I personally would never look at notes during an auction but I can't help it when FD just pops up. I don't even want to look. Sure if I'm playing for fun with some friends in an unknown partnership, but not in a tournament.

Justin, I believe there's a checkbox in the Convention Card options that controls whether you see the explanations of your partner's bids. So if you don't want to be tempted, turn off the option.

 

I believe the justification for turning it on by default is that most players are not familiar with FD or the systems on the default cards. During this introductory period we're erring on the side of UI to avoid MI.

No thats not the reason. The reason is as I explained earlier the problem about outdated laws and imcompetent mangement of WBF. They dont care and probably have no knowledge about online bridge. As described those 2 kinds are on decisive points very different. The rules therefore must be different too - especially they must be updated to be fit for today, which in practice is the situation as it has been for at least 10 years now.

 

The reason for showing partners bids is thats the only real way to avoid mis-information. It is so on all playgrounds - because those are created by men keen about taking care of core values in bridge.

 

The 3 problems are:

 

Concealed partnerships

 

Mis-information

 

Memory aid

 

are not possible to handle correct according to laws at the same time. You simply need to modify the laws. Unfortunately it is so that lawyers traditionally has never needed to care about the society they are living in. Until 5 years ago all of those in Denmark were small lawfirms only. The auditers has started merging into big companies 15 years ago and the lawyers has now started the same as it is no longer possible for them to catch up with iformation technology and education in any other way. So a little light we have - but very unsatisfactory to wait for the last ones I think.

 

Justin is one of those who ought to know that. Many seems to have fun to show ignorance or lack of knowledge - they are not to be taken serious.

 

ACBL(Gwen) do the right thing - to be soft on memory aid. That rule make no sense in a modern society with information technology. Neither in off-line nor in on-line.

[hrothgar]

ACBL(Gwen) do the right thing - to be soft on memory aid. That rule make no sense in a modern society with information technology. Neither in off-line nor in on-line.

Claus:

 

You, DrTodd, and anyone else who wants to already have an option to play bridge without any memory aids.

 

There is a world computer bridge championship each and every year.

You can find information about it right here

http://www.ny-bridge.com/allevy/computerbridge/

 

Go ahead. build your double dummy solver, create the ultimate bidding system, play whatever silly little reindeer games you want.

 

However, don't expect the rest of us to redefine tounament "Bridge" because you want to play a bidding system that you can't remember...

[csdenmark]

ACBL(Gwen) do the right thing - to be soft on memory aid. That rule make no sense in a modern society with information technology. Neither in off-line nor in on-line.

Claus:

 

You, DrTodd, and anyone else who wants to already have an option to play bridge without any memory aids.

 

There is a world computer bridge championship each and every year.

You can find information about it right here

http://www.ny-bridge.com/allevy/computerbridge/

 

Go ahead. build your double dummy solver, create the ultimate bidding system, play whatever silly little reindeer games you want.

 

However, don't expect the rest of us to redefine tounament "Bridge" because you want to play a bidding system that you can't remember...

Richard - Richard - Richard. Hope you feel better after the weekend!

[matmat]

what sort of memory aids would you suggest for f2f bridge?

 

It boggles my mind to think anyone would believe this to be reasonable. First off, you'd have to memorize where in your notes a particular auction is, otherwise you'd take forever to find it in the thick volume and slow down the game more, making it oh so much more fun to play...

[the hog]

Todd, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Are you seriously suggesting that players should be able to consult memory aids?

If so that is an unbelievable suggestion. I, (and you), play very complicated systems. Part of the price of playing those systems is the memory work involved; thats fine and to some extent I enjoy it because it makes me think about bidding sequences. Like Mat, my mind boggles at the suggestion. As Richard suggests, you might as well have your system file of a computer and look up all your continuations.

 

To Claus - at one point you were talking about driving a Ferrari; to drive a Ferrari without being a danger to yourself and others you need to have advanced driver education. Perhaps the Model T is looking more attractive?

[csdenmark]

what sort of memory aids would you suggest for f2f bridge?

 

It boggles my mind to think anyone would believe this to be reasonable. First off, you'd have to memorize where in your notes a particular auction is, otherwise you'd take forever to find it in the thick volume and slow down the game more, making it oh so much more fun to play...

Not so difficult to think of - it is mostly the compact widespread mobil phones of course which will be in line. But also pocket PC - wireless internet - you name it. Such lists and regulations will need to be updatet probably every second year.

 

Bridge rules were created at a time where you needed books to hold information. You cannot hold libraries at a table - but today you can easily have a library in a mobil phone. I am completely sure nobody will come to the silly idea to create rules like we see them today if they were to be created from scratch today.

 

Instead of opening for modern technology we see a still more rigid regulatory way to be used. Looking back at those 5 years I have watched Vugraph - still more conformity due to still more restrictions in order to equalize terms for all. The way to do so is to change the rules - to make them healthy.

 

Ancient rules like those some claims WBF to be valid will let the game die. That is certainly not going to be the last victim for technological progress. I think I will be at the funeral.

 

But I hope there within short will come some more perspective from some of those who are taking advantage from the modern technology - mainly those playing online of course.

[csdenmark]

To Claus - at one point you were talking about driving a Ferrari; to drive a Ferrari without being a danger to yourself and others you need to have advanced driver education. Perhaps the Model T is looking more attractive?

That simply refers to that I see no point in aspiring for number two. I go for the top. Anything else will be insane in bridge and anywhere else in life I think. - As a good sportsman I certainly accept to be number 2 but my aspirations will always be higher and better. You too I assume!

[the hog]

"Not so difficult to think of - it is mostly the compact widespread mobil phones of course which will be in line. But also pocket PC - wireless internet - you name it. Such lists and regulations will need to be updatet probably every second year.

 

My God, so now you are having people phone or txt the meanings of their bids via cell phones!!!! I have come to the conclusion that you are having a huge joke with everyone on this site.

[hrothgar]

To Claus - at one point you were talking about driving a Ferrari; to drive a Ferrari without being a danger to yourself and others you need to have advanced driver education. Perhaps the Model T is looking more attractive?

That simply refers to that I see no point in aspiring for number two. I go for the top. Anything else will be insane in bridge and anywhere else in life I think. - As a good sportsman I certainly accept to be number 2 but my aspirations will always be higher and better. You too I assume!

The thing is Claus, you aren't ever going to be number one this way.

 

The person who wrote the double dummy engine that's solving the card play problems is number one.

 

The person who wrote the bidding AI that's remember and decyphering all the bids is number one

 

You're just a sack of flesh pushing arround the cards...

 

Have can get any sense of achievement when you've separated yourself from the game like this?

[csdenmark]

"Not so difficult to think of - it is mostly the compact widespread mobil phones of course which will be in line. But also pocket PC - wireless internet - you name it. Such lists and regulations will need to be updatet probably every second year.

 

My God, so now you are having people phone or txt the meanings of their bids via cell phones!!!! I have come to the conclusion that you are having a huge joke with everyone on this site.

Ron you see the point in huge convention cards on paper today like you see those of Bermuda Bowl? They are in pdf format - why not in FD format?

[matmat]

Not so difficult to think of - it is mostly the compact widespread mobil phones of course which will be in line. But also pocket PC - wireless internet - you name it. Such lists and regulations will need to be updatet probably every second year.

If that's the case why bother with having a system at all? why not just text message your hand to your p, your opponents can do the same and then each pair makes successive bids to arrive at the final contract?

[matmat]

Ron you see the point in huge convention cards on paper today like you see those of Bermuda Bowl? They are in pdf format - why not in FD format?

because a convention card is pretty much a general approach to the system.

 

have you even thought about how much data storage you would need to describe every possible bidding sequence in the FD format?

[csdenmark]

Ron you see the point in huge convention cards on paper today like you see those of Bermuda Bowl? They are in pdf format - why not in FD format?

because a convention card is pretty much a general approach to the system.

 

have you even thought about how much data storage you would need to describe every possible bidding sequence in the FD format?

because a convention card is pretty much a general approach to the system

I assume we easily agree that 20 pages are no general approach

 

have you even thought about how much data storage you would need to describe every possible bidding sequence in the FD format?

Yes - less than 1MB. Meckwell Club - maybe not the full 800 pages some think they know of - is approx. 600 KB. Bocchi-Duboin 2001(the version with most brown-sticker features) is approx. 140 KB.

 

In a few months plastic hardrives containing 30 Giga are to be introduced for that market.

 

The advantage of that is that it will be benefitting amateurs who have bridge as a hobby but like to compete with the professionals. Today the professionals need to strip their features to fit them for the regulators. They ought instead provide remedies for amateurs to catch up using the technology most of us are using each day.

 

Why has anybody come to that conclusion that bridge need to be a game based on ancient rules. Oh - maybe nobody has come to that idea - it has just become so because of sleepy people.

[glen]

plastic hardrives

this two word phrase only gets one hit in google, so perhaps this little piggie is not going to market just yet, or maybe the phrase is incorrect? Maybe I'm just sleepy people.

[the hog]

I suspect he means USB keys or thumb drives as we call them.

[matmat]

i'm lazy

how many bidding sequences are there?

[DrTodd13]

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

[inquiry]

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

Actually, this 48 digit number looks about right. However, from the perspective of FD, it is a huge underestimate. This is just the possible auctions, but FD also takes into consideration all the various vulnerable conditions. No vul, they vul, we vul, both vul, and the effect of first, second, third and fourth seat on each of these auctions.

 

Needless to say, the number is, well, unimaginable large.

[matmat]

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

i figure about 30-50 bytes per sequence?

[csdenmark]

plastic hardrives

this two word phrase only gets one hit in google, so perhaps this little piggie is not going to market just yet, or maybe the phrase is incorrect? Maybe I'm just sleepy people.

It is a flash technology changing the way for harddrives to act. The mechanical features are replaced by optical features. Try search in Computerworld USA. I read the info yesterday - I think it was an RSS from Computerworld and the danish edition is often translations from IDG in USA.

 

There was a message today about the same from IT section of a danish engineering paper: http://www.version2.dk/artikel/964?rss

 

I found a link to an article in english http://news.com.com/SanDisk+rolls+out+flas...ml?tag=nefd.top

[csdenmark]

i'm lazy

how many bidding sequences are there?

Count them yourself please - I assume 2000-3000 statements. Please remember to disable 'Constructive' looking for competitive actions. This is 595KB

 

http://bridgefiles.net/cc/Meckwell%20Club%202003.bss

 

I forgot earlier - the obvious way for Alert will certainly be SMS - but I am completely sure you have figured that out yourself.

[hotShot]

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

Actually, this 48 digit number looks about right. However, from the perspective of FD, it is a huge underestimate. This is just the possible auctions, but FD also takes into consideration all the various vulnerable conditions. No vul, they vul, we vul, both vul, and the effect of first, second, third and fourth seat on each of these auctions.

 

Needless to say, the number is, well, unimaginable large.

Don't forget that you will need a complete set of these sequences for each possible bidding system your opps play.

I'm sure interventions with natural NT or Polish NT are handled differently.

[csdenmark]

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

Actually, this 48 digit number looks about right. However, from the perspective of FD, it is a huge underestimate. This is just the possible auctions, but FD also takes into consideration all the various vulnerable conditions. No vul, they vul, we vul, both vul, and the effect of first, second, third and fourth seat on each of these auctions.

 

Needless to say, the number is, well, unimaginable large.

Don't forget that you will need a complete set of these sequences for each possible bidding system your opps play.

I'm sure interventions with natural NT or Polish NT are handled differently.

No problem at all. Such devices will within a year or so be able to hold millions of complete systems including all features. Space is no problem.

 

Performance is the problem and it is here FD need important development. I am completely sure Fred knows that. Such will be decisive for bridge to be broadcasted as WEB-TV which will be my guess for what Fred has in mind for the future - maybe not so faraway future. If such is going to come through bridge need to be ruled back. Right now bridge is ruled back to Whist - thats where it all started with Culbertson. How to create the images if not mobil-phones?

 

FD need features for display, analyzing and forecasts - maybe integration with GIB.

[hrothgar]

I think that it would be useful to distinquish between three separate issues:

 

Issue 1: Would it be techically feasible to use a program like Full Disclosure for Face-to-Face play? I think that the answer to this is a definite "maybe". I think that arguing about what technology is available 15 years down the road is pretty pointless. You end up making quotes like "No one will ever need or use over 640Kilobytes of memory"

 

Issue 2: Would it be desirable to replace traditional "convention cards" with an FD type application? As I've commented before, I think that the FD application is pretty sweet. I'd like to see its use spread. If it becomes technologically feasible to use the FD app in face-to-face play, I think that it should be permitted. (Needless to say, there are a lot of issues that would need to get worked out before Bermuda Bowl applications will be required to submit an FD file. However, there's time)

 

Issue 3: Should players who are engaged in a "formal" competition be permitted to use FD as a cheat sheet? I think that virtually everyone here would agree that the answer to this is a resounding "no".