suicidal tendancies

[pigpenz]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=saq94hk86dkq83ca2]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

auction:

pass 1♦ 2♣ pass

3♣  you call?

 

saw this hand come up in an ACBL BBO imp game and thought it was interesting. Do people not believe their opps have their bids anymore or am I missing something? It was amazing the amount of people who kept bidding ;)

[pbleighton]

Easy pass.

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

 

The only other alternative being dbl.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[neilkaz]

If I double, don't I show this type of hand ? However, being vul at IMPs and with PD unable to find a call over 2C I am gambling that PD has something anyhow and that we get to the right place.

 

But if I am wrong we are going for 200 or 500 on a part score hand.

 

I'll pass and hope the opps bid onwards which is remotely possible if the raise was a stretch or if they have almost all of the missing 22 HCP.

 

If they somehow get to a making 22HCP 3NT, the cards likely lie so badly that we'd be down 800 if Xed at the 3 level someplace.

[pigpenz]

If I double, don't I show this type of hand ? However, being vul at IMPs and with PD unable to find a call over 2C I am gambling that PD has something anyhow and that we get to the right place.

yes but i would rather have 5♦'s to reopen with double....i have 18hcp opp overcalled that should be 10+hcp and other opp raised that should be 6-10 hcp. To me on this hand it just doesnt seem worth the risk on a partscore for doubling....so far none of the doublers have voiced in on why they doubled ;)

[Al_U_Card]

Pard's pass denied an 8 count with a decent 4 card major (for me). When I know the opps are on an 8 card fit, if I were to balance........a balanced 16 opposite 5 hcp (I hope) in a 4-3 (gulp! 3-3) fit will not be pretty (In Vegas or elsewhere)...

pass and hope to beat it 1. Even if pard has 4D and a 7 count......what a chance to take at imps....

 

btw why the heck didn't I open 1NT???

[Guest Jlall]

I'd X. We have a fit somewhere, and I have almost half the deck. We might have a 9 card fit and we might have a game. I'm not really worried about getting doubled.

[neilkaz]

Pard's pass denied an  8 count with a decent 4 card major (for me).  When I know the opps are on an 8 card fit, if I were to balance........a balanced 16 opposite 5 hcp (I hope) in a 4-3 (gulp! 3-3) fit will not be pretty (In Vegas or elsewhere)...

pass and hope to beat it 1.  Even if pard has 4D and a 7 count......what a chance to take at imps....

 

btw why the heck didn't I open 1NT???

If PD has 4♦ and a 6 count he should have raised and I'd often do it on a 5 count since the 1♦ opener almost always has 4 of them if you almost always open 1♣ when 4333 or 3433.

 

My PD's may stretch a negX will less that 8 if they have both majors.

 

I didn't open 1N since I play 15-17.

 

I'd intervene with a double at MP but am still passing here at IMPs.

[pigpenz]

I'd X. We have a fit somewhere, and I have almost half the deck. We might have a 9 card fit and we might have a game. I'm not really worried about getting doubled.

well at least one person who doubled has weighed in on the issue ;)

[Free]

I also double. 1♦-2♣-pass doesn't mean partner doesn't have any values. He may have a hand where he can't double with, depending on your agreements...

[awm]

Neither double nor pass is without risk. Some things to keep in mind:

 

(1) For most people, the 3♣ call is simply competitive and doesn't show much in the way of values. Something like Kxx xxxx xx Qxxx is a typical 3♣ raise. If 3♣ shows limit raise values things change substantially.

 

(2) Many people overcall 2♣ over 1♦ aggressively, because it removes a lot of space. Therefore it would not be surprising for 2♣ to be on some ten count for example.

 

(3) There are a lot of awkward hands partner could hold after the 2♣ call. For example even xx AQxxxx xxx xx has no easy call in this auction if not playing negative freebids. There are plenty of similar hands in the 4-8 point range where a double is awkward because opener may rebid spades, many of which offer good play for 3M or even 4M.

 

Most of us don't open 1NT on prime 18 counts (15-17 being the popular range these days, or even 14.5-17 or 14-16).

 

My guess would be that while you can go for 500 or even 800 by doubling, this will be pretty rare, and probably comparable to the odds of finding a good 4M game by doubling on a hand where partner had no easy call. The vast majority of the time you are simply changing the partial (we play 3M instead of they play 3♣). The bad cases for this you will get -200 (3M-2 or 3MX-1)instead of -110/-130 defending clubs, which is only lose 2 or 3, whereas in the good cases you will get +140 instead of -110 which is win 6, so even if the bad case is slightly more frequent you come out ahead.

 

I think the odds favor doubling, if slightly so. Obviously neither double nor pass will "always be right."

[cherdano]

saw this hand come up in an ACBL BBO imp game and thought it was interesting. Do people not believe their opps have their bids anymore or am I missing something? It was amazing the amount of people who kept bidding ;)

Unfortunately, my unreliable opponents usually don't have their bids (including the good opps) :(

So I have to double, and I wouldn't be totally surprised if we have game.

[the hog]

No bid is safe, but I think you have to X on these hands. To those who say that if pd held Ds he should have raised, well that aint necessarily so on crap.

[whereagles]

Wish all my take-out dbls were as easy as this one ;)

[MFA]

Double - very easy. Especially at imps(!). We cannot miss our routine games opposite decent values and a stiff club.

Jxx, QJxxxx, Jxx, x.

He could have much more.

 

At matchpoints, you might fear the dreaded -200 and sell out. Although i find that too passive also.

[mikeh]

I double, aware that it may end poorly. But partner can have a decent hand with a decent 5 or even 6 card major, unable to doube. A negative double by him promises more hcp than I need here to make it worth bidding, and, more importantly, he cannot double safely with many hands with only one major.

[neilkaz]

You people have quickly convinced me that wimping out is not best here.

[Codo]

I double, aware that it may end poorly. But partner can have a decent hand with a decent 5 or even 6 card major, unable to doube. A negative double by him promises more hcp than I need here to make it worth bidding, and, more importantly, he cannot double safely with many hands with only one major.

I agree with doubling, but I disagree with your reasoning. If pd has one major, he can bid 3 M quite safely, even if I pass now and lho does the same.

So you only gets problems if lho preempts further, but these problems are solvable.

 

But there are many other reasons for doubling, f.e. showing your shape and your strength, that this double looks quite easy.

[cherdano]

I double, aware that it may end poorly. But partner can have a decent hand with a decent 5 or even 6 card major, unable to doube. A negative double by him promises more hcp than I need here to make it worth bidding, and, more importantly, he cannot double safely with many hands with only one major.

I agree with doubling, but I disagree with your reasoning. If pd has one major, he can bid 3 M quite safely, even if I pass now and lho does the same.

So you only gets problems if lho preempts further, but these problems are solvable.

With a 6card suit maybe (it is still dangerous after opponents know their strength and degree of fit), but never with a 5-card suit. Also, do you pass his 3M bid or raise him? Both will be wrong quite often.

Also I don't understand what you want to do if LHO reraises. If you don't bid know and LHO bids, you will be shut out (which can be good or bad), any later action becomes really dangerous.

[marcD]

Dealer: East Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ AQ94 ♥ K86 ♦ KQ83 ♣ A2

 

auction:

pass 1♦ 2♣ pass

3♣  you call?

 

saw this hand come up in an ACBL BBO imp game and thought it was interesting. Do people not believe their opps have their bids anymore or am I missing something? It was amazing the amount of people who kept bidding :)

Too dangerous to PASS . Think double is clearcut even at IMP

[marcD]

If I double, don't I show this type of hand ? However, being vul at IMPs and with PD unable to find a call over 2C I am gambling that PD has something anyhow and that we get to the right place.

yes but i would rather have 5♦'s to reopen with double....i have 18hcp opp overcalled that should be 10+hcp and other opp raised that should be 6-10 hcp. To me on this hand it just doesnt seem worth the risk on a partscore for doubling....so far none of the doublers have voiced in on why they doubled :)

Why do i double ? because opponents rate to be cold for 3C and we could have 3D or 3 of a major. A partscore swing is nothing to sneeze at. Even if partner has very poor cards and we go minus 2 (unlikely) it will be extremely difficult fot the opponents to nail us. Good things can happen if I double : opponents go to the 4 level and end up going down, partner can bid a cold major game

[sceptic]

I double on this sort of hand and auction, it sometimes costs me, but then I do not play my cards as well as Justin, maybe another 100 years, I will still continue to x as I just dont see a downside to xing unless you play cards like me

 

I just think if pard had 5 cards in a suit and no hcp, we still have a shot at a three level contract and then opps have to bid at the 4 level and 18 hcp is a defensive hand to push them with

[mikestar]

I'm passing though I don't like it much and I certainly think X is reasonable. We are missing a game pretty much only if pard has 5♠ and some decent cards. We may lose a partscore swing by passing, but we avoid going for 200 or 500 if the hand lies badly.

 

The deciding point for me is that by concealing my extra strength, they may go down in 3♣ or 3NT when they could have made it if they knew I had all of our side's cards.

 

A murderously hard decision, and I would X at MP: -500 is just another bottom and winning the partscore swing may be a top.

[pigpenz]

A murderously hard decision, and I would X at MP: -500 is just another bottom and winning the partscore swing may be a top.

its imps not matchpoints :P

 

anyone thought of running a simulator on this one?

 

On actual hand several pairs got popped for

3♦x-3 -800

3♠x-2 -500

 

The spade player did find their 4-4 fit :(

 

side note:unless you lead the right card at trick one they make 3nt