What do you think of 4NT and what do you think of

[sceptic]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=st2hkqt9dkj94cj32&w=sak973h83dq73c985&e=sqj8h42dat8652c64&s=s654haj765dcakqt7]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     Pass  1♥

 Pass  3♥    Pass  4NT

 Pass  5♦    Pass  6♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

I put this in advanced as my p had 0314 on her profile along with advanced and ensuing covnverstation about my lack of bidding skills I was North

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

nothing, but easy to understand.

If you want to reach every slam in a pickup

partnership, you will quite often go down.

 

Of course South should bid 4C, and he will

hear 4D, over which he will sign off.

... This assumes, that South does North trust

enough to interpret 4C correct, if South does

not trust North enough, he has to make a

decison, ... and the decision was wrong.

 

It was unfortunate, that the opening leader

did hold AK of spades, if his spade holding

would have been different, he may have

led something else and the slam would have

been made.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[sceptic]

is 4NT blackwood Ace showing only in this sequence as this is what my P stated? and not 0314 as in profile

[awm]

I can't see what north did wrong in this auction. The north hand seems like a normal 4-card limit raise to me, and 1/4 is the correct response to keycard.

 

South made a common intermediate-level mistake of bidding keycard automatically when slam was an apparent possibility. Note that slam is actually quite good opposite a hand like:

 

Ax

KQxx

Jxxx

xxx

 

And slam even has reasonable play if you remove the heart queen from this hand (say replace it with the diamond queen). So south did well to recognize that slam was quite possible despite the only 24-25 hcp suggested by the auction. But asking keycards isn't the way to go when your goal is to find out about the degree of fit. South would be better off cuebidding 4♣ to start slam investigations, then bidding 4♥ over north's 4♦ (the 4♦ call implies some wasted values opposite the void, and as south has already indicated slam interest by bidding 4♣ it should be easy for north to carry on with a prime hand including a spade control).

 

Even if 4NT was "plain blackwood" (and I cannot imagine an auction where hearts are more clearly agreed than this one, so if you ever play RKC you should play it here) couldn't north hold:

 

Qxxx

QTxx

AQx

xx

 

How does slam look there? On a spade lead you'd be lucky to get down one, and even if spades are not lead and the heart king is onside it's hard to see how you make.

[P_Marlowe]

is 4NT blackwood Ace showing only in this sequence as this is what my P stated? and not 0314 as in profile

Having read 0314 in the profile, I would have

show the king of trump as well.

And if he attacks me, I would politely ask back,

what difference it makes, if we replace the King

of hearts with the Ace of diamonds.

 

... of course I would also label him as a moron (?!),

either leave after the next board, or seeking peace

in a glass of wine.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[sceptic]

My only comment back was if I had had the Ace of Diamonds, would that not indicate you still may have 2 or 3 spade losers

 

and the fact that she bid 4NT with a void which I thought was a big no no ( I never said that I just want to know)

[inquiry]

4NT was a horrible bid. Feel better?

 

Why was 4NT bad

 

even if you had two key cards,they could be AD, K of hearts and you are off two cashable spades

 

When you use RKCB, you need to know where you are going after you hear the response. With two quick losers in spades, you will not know (unless all three are held). In addition, the void in diamonds, means when you hear the keycards, you don't know if one is wasted or not.

 

A serious 3NT (denying a spade stopper) is just what the doctor ordered here...

 

1H-3H

3N <<==== slam interest, no spade stopper

 

Now north can signoff in 4H, end of story. Not playing serious 3NT, cue-bid the club ACE and north will signoff for the same reaosn (no control in spades).

[sceptic]

4NT was a horrible bid. Feel better?

 

not really, I just dont like advanced that are no better than me , critisising me , Xmas day OI am touchy today LOL

[P_Marlowe]

My only comment back was if I had had the Ace of Diamonds, would that not indicate you still may have 2 or 3 spade losers

 

and the fact that she bid 4NT with a void which I thought was a big no no ( I never said that I just want to know)

If you bid 4NT with a void, you go a risk, in

case the answer does not cover all suits.

 

But sometimes you have no choice, due

to limited partnership agreements / trust /

..., and you should be prepared to pay price,

and pay it, if you have to.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Echognome]

Only thing I want to add to this discussion is that a regular partnership should discuss cue-bidding style. If bidding 1st or 2nd round control, then North should bid 4♥ over 4♣, NOT 4♦. Why? Since South's 4♣ denies a spade control, North knows that slam is not a possibility, so signs off in 4♠. IMO, if North bids 4♦ he is showing both a diamond and a spade control. (Again depending on cuebidding styles)

[hotShot]

If lots of experts are in fact advanced or intermediates, you should realize that lots of the advanced are weak intermediates.

 

I guess that south expected you to play Bergen raises or something like that to show an invitational ♥ support and that he/she expected 3♥ to be at least opening strength. Nothing one would expect without agreement.

 

South has a strong hand, but 4NT is just plain stupid. If you don't use serious NT, I guess 4♣ would have been a cue bid now, giving you the chance to show wasted ♦ values.

[sceptic]

south had no expectations of bergen raises at all, everything we agreee was on her profile and std carding,

[Winstonm]

No matter with whom I play, I have only one rule and this is established before the first board is touched: there will be no discussion, zero, nada, none, of any board, hand, defense, bid, play, or how many reindeer pulled Santa's sleigh until after all the boards are completed.

 

No one can concentrate on more than one board at a time, and the only one of importance is the next one - everything else is history. The time to talk about history is after the session.

 

I used to have a horrible bridge ego until I make an equally horrible bid against Sontag and Weichsel that cost our team a knockout match. It turmed out to be good for me in that thereafter I became a much better partner for I had learned a valuable lesson - let him who is without bridge error cast the first aspersion.

 

The best part is that if you follow this advice, if your partner does start criticizing, you can simply say, "Thanks of the game," and leave, as the rules of engagement were established prior to play. No one can find fault in someone simply keeping their word. :blink:

[cherdano]

Only thing I want to add to this discussion is that a regular partnership should discuss cue-bidding style. If bidding 1st or 2nd round control, then North should bid 4♥ over 4♣, NOT 4♦. Why? Since South's 4♣ denies a spade control, North knows that slam is not a possibility, so signs off in 4♠. IMO, if North bids 4♦ he is showing both a diamond and a spade control. (Again depending on cuebidding styles)

Well, the very first thing to discuss is whether South's first bid is a cue or a natural slam try. In my preferred style I would have to bid 3♠ to tell partner that I need spade values.

Also, is 5♦ exclusion or a void splinter? This hand is a great advertisement for the latter, isn't it?

[dake50]

4NT= i am going to try this slam--just asking keys to see beforehand how foolish it is!

[sceptic]

The best part is that if you follow this advice, if your partner does start criticizing, you can simply say, "Thanks of the game," and leave, as the rules of engagement were established prior to play. No one can find fault in someone simply keeping their word. 

 

not if you have signed up for a tourney, this is one of the reasons there could be so many deserters in tourneys

[neilkaz]

Wayne..I think we may have suffered a couple hands with the same PD..and once she started in on me, it was only a couple.

 

Her 4NT bid would be laughed at in the Beg/Int forum as well. After any type of serious 3NT (OK most pickups don't play it) or the very standard 4♣ bid, N knows there is no spade control and can sign the hand off in 4♥.

 

Off course 4NT is RKC ! What other suit has been bid or implied ?

 

Even if P hadn't said a word to me, this would have been my last hand here, if playing in MBC, since I expect advanced players to have much better basic bidding skills.

 

// neilkaz //

[csdenmark]

Dealer: East Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ T2 ♥ KQT9 ♦ KJ94 ♣ J32 ♠ AK973 ♥ 83 ♦ Q73 ♣ 985 ♠ QJ8 ♥ 42 ♦ AT8652 ♣ 64 ♠ 654 ♥ AJ765 ♦ [space] ♣ AKQT7  

 

West  North East  South

 

 -     -     Pass  1♥

 Pass  3♥    Pass  4NT

 Pass  5♦    Pass  6♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

I put this in advanced as my p had 0314 on her profile along with advanced and ensuing covnverstation about my lack of bidding skills I was North

I can always find something better than a double raise for a strong hand. I will assume 3♥ to be preempt - or without discussion maybe mild invitational. I will be much surprised for 4NT rebid.

[Winstonm]

The best part is that if you follow this advice, if your partner does start criticizing, you can simply say, "Thanks of the game," and leave, as the rules of engagement were established prior to play. No one can find fault in someone simply keeping their word. 

 

not if you have signed up for a tourney, this is one of the reasons there could be so many deserters in tourneys

Yes, even in a tourney, live play or otherwise. This is my inviolate rule, and enforcing this rule is more important to me than being banned from play.

 

You would be amazed at how much better you can play, as well as how much better partner can play, if you both can learn to leave the last board behind and focus only on the task at hand.

 

The other point is one does not have to put himself in a position where this rule cannot be applied - for example, as a substitute in a tournament. The simple answer is don't sub.

 

Now, that is only my rule and may not be right for everyone. If your goal is to play as often as possible it is not a good rule, but then you should realize that without this agreement you may be subject to this type of non-sense and simply have to learn to shrug it off.

 

From long experience, I have found that most of this type of tantrum throwing is ego-protection, that the espouser is simply trying to show the opponents that it was not his fault but his hideous partner - there is no real attempt at teaching.

 

In these cases, it is best not to argue but simply say, "You are probably right. Can we talk about it later?"

[Rebound]

I usually just snort at my screen at this sort. As often as not, the opponents are good enough to spot the culprit and that's good enough for me. Sometimes, I even look forward to what they'll say next for the entertainment value. That is, before it, too, wears off and I go elsewhere.

[the hog]

4NT was a horrible bid. Feel better?

 

Why was 4NT bad

 

even if you had two key cards,they could be AD, K of hearts and you are off two cashable spades

 

When you use RKCB, you need to know where you are going after you hear the response. With two quick losers in spades, you will not know (unless all three are held). In addition, the void in diamonds, means when you hear the keycards, you don't know if one is wasted or not.

 

A serious 3NT (denying a spade stopper) is just what the doctor ordered here...

 

1H-3H

3N <<==== slam interest, no spade stopper

 

Now north can signoff in 4H, end of story. Not playing serious 3NT, cue-bid the club ACE and north will signoff for the same reaosn (no control in spades).

I agree with Ben's comments. 4NT with a void is a silly bid.

[whereagles]

4NT is a textbook example of how NOT to use blackwood: South has wide open spades and a void. Even one of these would be enough to avoid blackood.

[Halo]

Playing naturally I like 4C after 3H to show initially a good second suit. I would expect my auction to go:

 

1H-3H

4C-4H

Pass

 

If I felt compelled to go for a slam, I think just bidding six hearts is better than annoying partner with 4NT.