What do you bid?

[awm]

Your partner starts the bidding with a pass and RHO opens 1♣. You play fairly standard overcall methods. Your hand:

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=st54hkj52daq3ckj2]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

[Guest Jlall]

double or 1H depending on circumstances and partner, but usually double. I am not a believer in passing with this hand type white at MP.

[flytoox]

Pass. change black suits I　dbl.

[the hog]

I like 1H

[pbleighton]

This hand is a good advertisement for overcalling with 4 card suits. You have a clear 1H overcall, instead of a flawed double or a worse pass.

 

In my partnership where we play 4 card overcalls, our takeout doubles of 1m are a lot cleaner than they used to be :blink:

 

Peter

[cherdano]

This hand is a good advertisement for overcalling with 4 card suits. You have a clear 1H overcall, instead of a flawed double or a worse pass.

I am not sure it is an advertisement. Is ♥KJ52 really THE feature of the hand I want to show?

I pass, but I am much closer to doubling than overcalling 1♥.

[hotShot]

Double can be shape oriented promising 4-4 in the majors or you can agree that it just shows opening strength.

I usually suggest to play it just point showing, because of hands like that.

This way my overcalls show 5card suits and an NT overcall stays well defined.

 

Of cause if i have to agree to shape oriented doubles, than bidding 4card majors is a good idea, because pass is the worst description you can give, if you actually hold opening strength, because it puts the pressure on your partner to reopen. You need tools to show an off shape hand with opening strength.

[hrothgar]

Playing standard methods, I'd pass

 

I've played in some partnerships where I'd overcall 1♥, and others where I'd double, but I don't consider either choice mainstream here in the US.

 

From my perspective, the main troule with double is the 3=4=3=3 shape. If we play a Spade contract, the tap is going to be in the wrong hand. Txx in Spades is a miserable holding if declarer needs to ruff a couple Spades in hand.

[pbleighton]

"I am not sure it is an advertisement. Is ♥KJ52 really THE feature of the hand I want to show?"

 

It depends on what you are playing.

 

Playing standard methods, where pd expects 5 hearts, or occasionally a very good 4 card suit, KJxx isn't what pd expects, and I would double (though pass is close).

 

If you ROUTINELY overcall with 4 cards, it is clearly the bid. I overcall with worse suits, and am happy with the results - usually :blink:

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Pass,

 

While I think overcalling with 4 card mayors

is a great idea, I would rather overcall 1NT

instead of 1H, at least I would have gotten

the streangth + the stopper across.

 

In my opinion, the quality of a 1H bid gets

only beaten by a take out dbl.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

double or 1H depending on circumstances and partner, but usually double. I am not a believer in passing with this hand type white at MP.

I am surprised a bit by this comment. I could understand some bid at any vul at any form of scoring but Justin seems to recommend a more limited approach.

[awm]

This hand came up in an ACBL tournament on BBO. I thought it was interesting because virtually the entire field chose to double on this hand. Double is probably my 4th choice among the possible bids (after 1NT, pass, and 1♥). My reasoning was:

 

(1) Double will often lead to a spade contract, which (especially if partner has a 4-card suit) will not play particularly well.

(2) If we're going to play the hand and partner doesn't have a five-card major, likely 1NT is the best partial. But this will be virtually impossible to reach after a double since my hand is not good enough to double and rebid 1NT and partner is unlikely to have the right shape (and club stopper) to bid 1NT herself.

(3) Assuming this hand will be a competition for a partial, I want to eliminate the opponents' ability to bid at the one-level, making it harder for them to find a 4-4 spade fit if they have one. Bidding 1NT will do this and double will not.

(4) Bidding 1NT allows the contract to play from my side, which may well be advantageous given my tenaces in three of four suits.

 

In any case, partner's hand was:

 

xxx

AQTx

Jxx

QTx

 

The field (for the most part) reached 2♥ on this pair of hands. We reached 2NT when partner made an invite over my 1NT call. Despite the fact that we actually have an 8-card heart fit (and most of the values, and the opponents do not have an 8-card spade fit) it's not actually clear to me that I'd rather play 2♥ than 2NT on this hand. Most of the time (given the bidding) I won't have to worry about five spade tricks cashing (either they will be 4-3 or the suit will block usually, LHO can barely have enough for KQxxx of spade and RHO won't have five). So if the diamond hook is on I'll have eight tricks, and hearts will virtually never make more than eight tricks (lose three spades, one club, and one diamond even if the finesse wins). Unfortunately the diamond finesse was off and I received a near-bottom for my troubles. But I was curious as to the thought process people have on this hand.

[Winstonm]

I double. As the double can be shaded with shape to as little as a 10-count, this poor shape double has to have compensating high cards. I don't promise more than 3-card support for the majors if I have compensating values or shape, i.e., a 3451 hand.

[Guest Jlall]

If we play a Spade contract, the tap is going to be in the wrong hand. Txx in Spades is a miserable holding if declarer needs to ruff a couple Spades in hand.

heh, they won't have a suit where they can tap you :blink:

[dake50]

Is this 1C on 0-7C, 0-6D, 0-4H, 0-5S, 12-22hcp? Then giddy-up this auction!

[the hog]

This hand is a good advertisement for overcalling with 4 card suits.  You have a clear 1H overcall, instead of a flawed double or a worse pass.

I am not sure it is an advertisement. Is ♥KJ52 really THE feature of the hand I want to show?

I pass, but I am much closer to doubling than overcalling 1♥.

I am very surprised by this comment. Wouldn't you like a H lead from partner?

 

AWM: 1NT is probably the worst possible bid you can make on this hand. Pd is passed, 1NT is an overstatement of strength, you have a 4333 shape. I would seriously rate 1NT as 0/10. It would be a slightly different story if pd had not passed initially, but even then, where is your source of tricks?

[Guest Jlall]

re 1N... I would agree that it seems like too much of an overbid with not much safety. With partner being a passed hand, getting Xed wouldn't be a shocker. I'm guessing my 1N overcalls are significantly sounder than yours though given your partners invite.

[kgr]

re 1N... I would agree that it seems like too much of an overbid with not much safety. With partner being a passed hand, getting Xed wouldn't be a shocker. I'm guessing my 1N overcalls are significantly sounder than yours though given your partners invite.

If the 2 and 3's would be 8,9, T's,; would you bid 1NT then?

[kenrexford]

You end up in a, perhaps, 12:5 favorite for best contract and it fails. Unfortunately, as added pain, partner has mirror distribution. You did that by overcalling favorable 1NT, a call based probably on your six cards that all seem favorably placed.

 

IMO, you made what I agree to be the right call and paid the percentage game price on this hand.

 

The next question, perhaps, is whether this hand is an example of when you should make what you believe (and I and others) to be the wrong field action, to avoid a top-or-bottom scenario. This is one thing that I hate about matchpoints. I am simply incapable of even deciding what a field bid will be most of the time, and then of assessing the pro's and con's of going what I believe to be anti-field. However, on this one, I doubt highly that the HCP-itis folks, and those who view judgment calls as masterminding when they disagree with or do not understand the judgment, will ever overcall 1NT on 14 when 4333. So, I'm fairly safe here guessing that 1NT is anti-field.

 

However, the next step seems to be weighing the results of the field action. I cannot imagine how doubling will likely yield better results in the long run. Perhaps there is a better chance here, because the colors make 2♠ competition unlikely, and often lucrative for us if faced.

 

There is a lot more to think about here, perhaps. I'd just keep bidding 1NT in this situation, with a hand like this, and expect tops more often than bottoms.

[Guest Jlall]

You end up in a, perhaps, 12:5 favorite for best contract and it fails.

Where do you get these numbers? The diamond king rates to be on but surely the chances of 5-2 spades (less AK tight with DK on) combined with the DK being offside (you are missing 16 HCP so it's certainly possible albeit not likely) is more than 30 %?

 

I suspect it was the passers who got the top on this board if the spades were 4-3 since they will be defending 1C or 1N for +200. If spades are 5-2 though then they will only get +100 in which case the 1H/Xers got a top...

 

I played the board but don't really remember the layout, but it seems like either the passers or the non 1N bidders will get the top on this hand, not the 1N bidders.

[awm]

The results on the board were as follows:

 

The vast majority of the field doubled, and reached 2♥ when advancer bid 1♥ and doubler raised (with or without a competitive 1♠ call from opener) to 2♥. Barring some extraordinary misplay or misdefense (hard even given the level of ACBL tourneys) the result for 2♥ was making two for +110.

 

A few people passed out either the 1♣ opening or a rebid of 1♠ by opener after 1♣-P-1♦-P-1♠ or 1♣-X-P-1♥-1♠. In either of these one-level contracts the normal result was to set it one trick for +100.

 

A few people overcompeted the opponents cards, and ended up at the two or three-level (sometimes doubled, more often not) leading to +200 or more for north/south.

 

A few people overcompeted the north-south cards in response to overcompeting opponents, typically leading to 3♥ one down for -50.

 

Overcalling 1NT opposite a partner who doesn't game force at MPs with a 4333 9-count got me -50 when the spades were 4-3 and the diamond king was offside.

 

--------------------

 

My calculation is that spades are actually extremely likely to divide on this hand. Suppose spades are 5-2. LHO can't have ♠AKxxx or ♠AQxxx, because this leaves opener without enough to open the bidding. Even if LHO has ♠AJ9xx or ♠KQ9xx (leaving RHO with a balanced 12), he might well respond 1♠ over the double. If LHO has ♠QJxxx then the suit blocks, so this leaves only ♠KJxxx which I know some people would respond on too. Anyways, I wouldn't say that 2NT is "much better" than 2♥ as contracts go, but I think it's roughly equal. I'm not really posting this to "complain about my result;" it's more that I was surprised that the field was so overwhelmingly in favor of doubling on this hand.

[keylime]

I overcall 1♥; 1NT is an overbid with such flat shape and no body. Double is just as bad when I own potentially 2 club winners, and I'm not afraid of a 4-3 heart fit on this hand. If I doubled I can't handle LHO's spade call and raise. Pard isn't going to go right on the lead.

[kenrexford]

You end up in a, perhaps, 12:5 favorite for best contract and it fails.

Where do you get these numbers? The diamond king rates to be on but surely the chances of 5-2 spades (less AK tight with DK on) combined with the DK being offside (you are missing 16 HCP so it's certainly possible albeit not likely) is more than 30 %?

 

I suspect it was the passers who got the top on this board if the spades were 4-3 since they will be defending 1C or 1N for +200. If spades are 5-2 though then they will only get +100 in which case the 1H/Xers got a top...

 

I played the board but don't really remember the layout, but it seems like either the passers or the non 1N bidders will get the top on this hand, not the 1N bidders.

Against the possibility of spades splitting 5-2 you must also weigh the risk of hearts splitting 4-1 or 5-0, as well as the risk of clubs splitting 6-1. I'd venture that these are roughly equal.

 

For instance, the defense could easily be club lead, club ruff, spade back, cash second spade, second club ruff, cash spade, back spade (pitching diamond), diamond finesse failing, for down two at 2♥. Similarly, problems may arise when hearts are 4-1 or 5-0, even when spades are 4-3 and the fourth round is played, allowing a useless ruff-sluff that promotes the long heart.

 

The 12:5 ratio involves highly complicated advanced string theory...

[Guest Jlall]

The 12:5 ratio involves highly complicated advanced string theory...

lmao

[Guest Jlall]

Against the possibility of spades splitting 5-2 you must also weigh the risk of hearts splitting 4-1

What does it matter if hearts are 4-1? You are still fine if the diamond hook is on.

 

You really suggest that 6-1 clubs or 5-0 hearts is as likely as 5-2 spades? That is some highly complicated advanced crack theory.