Problem hand for B/I members from 12-17-03

[inquiry]

In today's tournment, this was a problem hand for many of the club members.

 

Dealer North

Vuln. NS

 

            S Q63         

            H K752         

            D Q2           

            C A854         

S T                        S AK9842

H J43                      H QT96

D AJT5                    D 97

C KQJ73                    C 2

 

            S J75         

            H A8           

            D K8643       

            C T96         

 

At six of the the ten tables, the bidding went PASS-PASS-PASS to west who has a decision to make. West has good shape and concentration of honors in the minors. But is lacking the master suit.

 

There is a "RULE" for this situation called the rule of 15. This rule says add your hcp to your spade length. If the total is 15 you can open. Here West has 12 hcp and 1 spade = 13. This suggest pass. Pass would win a fair number of imps. All 6 WEST's opened.

 

Three EAST's choose to open 2S. It takes heart ace and heart at trick two to beat 2S, so this is not a bad contract. IT goes 2S-all pass at these tables. The "problem" with a 2S opening bid is that the textbooks tell you not to preempt with a side four card major. I am not going to tell you that the textbooks are wrong, but I believe 2S bid is pretty good call with this hand.

 

One East thougth the hand was worth opening 1S. This is not a horrible hand evaluation. In fact, 1S is probably better on this hand than 2S's, but this EW pair got too high, as west made a slam try and they played in 5H's.

 

The problem the 1C and 1D opener bidders had is they had no way to stop. If you DO open WEST, 1D might be best, and then rebid 2C. Your partner's best try might be to bid 1S over 1D and then over 2C rebid 2S rather than rebidding 2Hs.

[Gerben47]

I agree with most of your analysis, it's a close call between pass, 1S and 2S on the east hand. I think I would open 1S and be dummy in 2NT or even 3NT.

 

Then I think the west hand is a clear pass in fourth seat. You have no spades, and you have no rebid.

 

The third problem for many pairs was how to brake after 1minor was opened. I can imagine 1C - 1S - 2C and 1D - 1S - 2C as possible auctions.

1C - 1S - 2D is very bad, that is a reverse bid and shows 16+ points!

 

East understandibly liked his hand which as said above was judged an opening bid by some. Of course, give partner

 

T3

43

AK653

A543

 

And 4S is an excellent contract, although partner has only 11 points (although these cards are all working, he could easily have a king more and not do anything if you bid 2S now). Alas, even 2S was in danger opposite the actual hand, and if you invite with 3S now you are already too high...

 

There's no "right" bid with the east hand on this auction. Both can be wrong.

 

Solution: Don't play strong jump shifts. Use 1 suit - 2 higher suit to show 5 - 8 HCP and 6-card suit (a sort of weak two bid). With the current hand you can now bid 1D - 1S - 2C - 2S and show 9 - 11 HCP with a 6-card spade suit (the actual hand).

 

For the stronger hands (including those that used to make strong jump shifts) you can jump to 3S on this auction (which is now game forcing!), or even 4S with an independent suit. Or you can bid 4th suit forcing and then spades.

[Gerben47]

I thought about it some more, our (2/1 GF) sequence would be:

 

1S - 1NT (forcing, rightfully! worried about favorable 1S opening bid)

2H - 2NT (invitational, not liking what I'm hearing so far)

pass (me neither)

 

It's probably scramble home making two tricks in each suit.

[hrothgar]

Here are my thought, playing decidedly "non-standard" standard

 

Dealer North

Vuln. NS

 

S Q63

H K752

D Q2

C A854

S T S AK9842

H J43 H QT96

D AJT5 D 97

C KQJ73 C 2

 

S J75

H A8

D K8643

C T96

 

First issue:

 

What to bid with the East hand. I don't like offshape preempts in 2nd seat and would not open 2S.

 

Playing 2/1 I have a clear pass

Playing SAYC, I would probably pass, but would not fault a 1S opening.

 

Second issue:

 

Whether to open the West hand. Like most people, I use Pearson points, however, these apply to marginal opening bids. I have a nice hand with conventrated values in my two suits.

The hand is worth 13.75 K&R points. It seems clear to open.

 

With this said and done, I am going to open 1D due to the rebid problem.

[luis]

In today's tournment, this was a problem hand for many of the club members.

 

Dealer North

Vuln. NS

 

S Q63

H K752

D Q2

C A854

S T S AK9842

H J43 H QT96

D AJT5 D 97

C KQJ73 C 2

 

S J75

H A8

D K8643

C T96

 

At six of the the ten tables, the bidding went PASS-PASS-PASS to west who has a decision to make. West has good shape and concentration of honors in the minors. But is lacking the master suit.

 

There is a "RULE" for this situation called the rule of 15. This rule says add your hcp to your spade length. If the total is 15 you can open. Here West has 12 hcp and 1 spade = 13. This suggest pass. Pass would win a fair number of imps. All 6 WEST's opened.

 

Three EAST's choose to open 2S. It takes heart ace and heart at trick two to beat 2S, so this is not a bad contract. IT goes 2S-all pass at these tables. The "problem" with a 2S opening bid is that the textbooks tell you not to preempt with a side four card major. I am not going to tell you that the textbooks are wrong, but I believe 2S bid is pretty good call with this hand.

 

One East thougth the hand was worth opening 1S. This is not a horrible hand evaluation. In fact, 1S is probably better on this hand than 2S's, but this EW pair got too high, as west made a slam try and they played in 5H's.

 

The problem the 1C and 1D opener bidders had is they had no way to stop. If you DO open WEST, 1D might be best, and then rebid 2C. Your partner's best try might be to bid 1S over 1D and then over 2C rebid 2S rather than rebidding 2Hs.

 

 

 

Interesting I'd have opened North, East AND South hands :-)

North:

In 1st position with 11 a 1c opening is ok to me. I can accept passing but if you would have opened with 12, just do it with 11, opening before your opponents is important.

East:

If you don't open the East hand you have a bridge problem. You may like 1s or 2s, doesn't matter to me but you can't just pass that hand. I'd have opened 1s.

South:

Third position, a light 1d may be nice for lead directing purposes. But this is just a 3rd seat "I will bid something" thing.

 

Interesting most players opened the only hand that doesn't have to open and passed with the hands that should have opened :-)

[Free]

I open with east with 1S. Not 2S because the H-suit could go lost. You have only 6.5 losers, and the values in your 2 suits.

 

With west hand, I'll pass! I just don't like the hand. It looks like a hand I had a few weeks ago in my local club, where I also passed and it was a top, because ops had the majors. If you open, you'll still have to lie about your shape - no rebid. With 5D-4C I might consider a 1D opening, now I'll sit back and relax, and hope it's a good descision...

 

'Rule of 20' or 'losers' does not apply in this situation, it's rule of 15. 12+1=13.

 

Free

[hrothgar]

I really dislike opening the North hand playing Standard. For what its worth, I think that it is too light to consider opening playing MOSCITO, let alone SAYC or 2/1. Q2 in Diamonds is a major flaw, as is Q63 in Spades.

 

The K&R hand evaluator rates this hand as 9.8 HCP: Way too weak for me to consider opening.

 

For what its worth, the beginners might find the following URL useful

http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/knr.cgi

 

This link allows you to input Bridge Hands and find out how strong they are using the Kaplan / Rubens hand evaluation algorithm. This algorithm attempts to replicate the hand evaluation judgement of the late/great Edgar Kaplan.

 

I find the algorithm extremely useful for a variety of simulations.

[inquiry]

Try to keep in mind this post is in the beginner section dealing with a hand played in a beginner tournment, and is meant to be helpful for beginners. Suggesting them to open south hand, while stragically probably sound (we have discussed light third seat opening in some of the classes and other hands in this series) is probably not appropriate to this audience.

 

The two big issues here... is EAST a 2S bid (or maybe 1S bid), and when should you pass in fourth seat after three passes with a hand you would open in other seats... :-)

[luis]

Try to keep in mind this post is in the beginner section dealing with a hand played in a beginner tournment, and is meant to be helpful for beginners. Suggesting them to open south hand, while stragically probably sound (we have discussed light third seat opening in some of the classes and other hands in this series) is probably not appropriate to this audience.

 

The two big issues here... is EAST a 2S bid (or maybe 1S bid), and when should you pass in fourth seat after three passes with a hand you would open in other seats... :-)

 

Agreed, opening the south hand in third position or the north hand in first position is only ok if you are a lunatic like me.

The important lessons for B/I players are opening East 1s or 2s or something and not opening west's hand.

[hrothgar]

I don't think that East is a 2S opening bid in 2nd seat.

The side 4 card Heart suit is too big a flaw.

Switch the Heart suit and the Diamond suit and opening becomes much more attractive

 

Systemically, I don't mind a 1S opening, however, I'm not sure whether I would recommend this bid to a novice.

 

As I noted earlier, I don't have a problem opening the West hand.

[Free]

The two big issues here... is EAST a 2S bid (or maybe 1S bid), and when should you pass in fourth seat after three passes with a hand you would open in other seats... :-)

 

East has no 2S bid imo, but a 1S opening and showing minimal all the way.

 

West is a totaly different case. It's a 4th hand, you're minimal (not even 13 hcp), you have no clear rebid and you don't have majors. The rule of 15 was developped for such cases. If you're minimal, the HCP are distributed evenly, so you or your opponents are going to play for a part score. If you don't have a major and no clear rebid, you'd better pass (like this case) because it's more likely your opponents have the majors together, AND your partner wont be able to judge correctly weither to go to 3-level or not.

So with this in mind, you need the spades the most, because that's the highest suit to be able to play at 2-level in a partscore. Ops will need to bid at 3-level to take your part score from you, while you can always bid at the same level they do.

=> Rule of 15: count HCP + number of Spades and open if you have at least 15.

 

I'm not saying this way will always win, but if it wins more than it loses, it's a good method (similar to dont from 44+, you lose some, but win a lot more).

 

Free

[luis]

The two big issues here... is EAST a 2S bid (or maybe 1S bid), and when should you pass in fourth seat after three passes with a hand you would open in other seats... :-)

 

East has no 2S bid imo, but a 1S opening and showing minimal all the way.

 

West is a totaly different case. It's a 4th hand, you're minimal (not even 13 hcp), you have no clear rebid and you don't have majors. The rule of 15 was developped for such cases. If you're minimal, the HCP are distributed evenly, so you or your opponents are going to play for a part score. If you don't have a major and no clear rebid, you'd better pass (like this case) because it's more likely your opponents have the majors together, AND your partner wont be able to judge correctly weither to go to 3-level or not.

So with this in mind, you need the spades the most, because that's the highest suit to be able to play at 2-level in a partscore. Ops will need to bid at 3-level to take your part score from you, while you can always bid at the same level they do.

=> Rule of 15: count HCP + number of Spades and open if you have at least 15.

 

I'm not saying this way will always win, but if it wins more than it loses, it's a good method (similar to dont from 44+, you lose some, but win a lot more).

 

Free

 

I must say I agree 100% with you free. Being this the B/I forum Person's rule (AKA rule of 15) is a very valuable tool to know if you have to open or not in 4th hand. For more advanced players it's not a rule but a tool.

[paulg]

In today's tournment, this was a problem hand for many of the club members.

 

Dealer North

Vuln. NS

 

S Q63

H K752

D Q2

C A854

S T S AK9842

H J43 H QT96

D AJT5 D 97

C KQJ73 C 2

 

S J75

H A8

D K8643

C T96

 

 

I believe that the East hand should be opened, although I am open to both 1S and 2S bids.

 

I think that 2S is acceptable in the USA where weak two bids tend to be a lot stronger than you generally find in Europe. Personally I'd open 1S as it is too strong for one of my weak twos.

 

I am not overly concerned about having a side 4-card heart suit.

 

Only Gerben has mentioned a rebid with the East hand presuming that you open it 1S? Personally I think it is useful to have a rule of how to bid 6-4 hands and Mike Lawrence's suggestion is to rebid the suit with most points ... here that would mean 2S.

 

Although it wouldn't be my choice, opening 2S is the better chance of getting a positive score on this specific hand as we are probably getting too high after 1S.

 

Finally passing the hand out is likely to be better than 1S, but what fun is that ;)

[JRG]

Everyone seems to have an opinion! (Which is good.)

 

My partner and I have used Pearson Points for years. As a couple of posters have pointed out, you apply Pearson Points in 4th position after 3 passes. You also ONLY apply them when you are not sure whether to open a hand or not.

 

I'm with Richard. I didn't even count my Pearson Points with the West hand -- it was an automatic 1D opening for me. It's not marginal.

 

If you decide to pass this hand because the opponents' might have the spade suit, you will win some of the time and lose some of the time. I suspect you will lose a lot more often than you win.

 

First, as here, there is no reason that partner cannot hold the spade suit (yes, I know there are two opponents and one partner). Secondly, just because the opponents hold spades does not mean they can make a contract.

 

The concept behind Pearson Points is that when the "values" in a deal are divided roughly evenly, then the side that holds the spade suit wins because they can outbid the other side at the same level. Hence adding values for holding the spades. However, to apply the guideline, you have to judge that the strength (points, high-cards, however you value strength) is roughly evenly divided.

 

Since I would open the hand in 1st or 2nd position, I also open it in 4th.

 

Cheers,

John

[Free]

I can asure you, if I open in 4th hand when NV, ops have spades if I don't have them. With spades and weak, my partner bids, with spades and strong he bids to ofcourse... So in this case, ops have at least 8 spades together (if partner passed legally - here he had to bid) => pass for me :)

 

Free

[mishovnbg]

Hi John!

I use your "Pearson Points" from 25 years, quoted as "Cansino points" by Jeff Rubens, rule of 14 apply ;D.

Misho

[mikestar]

I evaluate the East hand at a bit more than 6 losers. It is reasonable to open a six loser hand that is a bit sub-minimum in other respects, so 1SP by East is the best choice, IMHO.

[hoki]

>The important lessons for B/I players are opening East 1s or 2s or something and not opening west's hand.

 

Unfortunately my hand analysis prepared after the tournament was not mailed to players. Also, unfortunately, I did not know about this forum. So for those who are still interested in this thread, here is my analysis - which is unaffected by most of the above postings above:

 

West  North  East  South

-  Pass  Pass  Pass

1C  Pass   1S  Pass

2C  Pass   2S

 

The East hand is too weak to open 1S but contains a good four-card major which disqualifies it for opening 2S. West does not have an easy rebid and the choice is between 1NT (flawed because of the singleton) and 2C (flawed because of only holding five clubs); West is not strong enough to rebid 2D, which is a “reverse” bid and requires at least 16 points.

 

Those of you who follow my advice on opening leads will find that you can’t defeat the contract if declarer is astute. If you start off with the ace and a small heart, however, you strike gold. Partner wins the king and returns the two of hearts (lowest card, signalling for the lower of the other two suits) which you ruff. When you return a club, partner wins the ace and pushes another heart through – allowing you to ruff with your jack. That is five tricks. Declarer needs to cash the ace of diamonds, pitch a diamond on the king of clubs, and finesse North for the queen of spades in order to make the remaining eight tricks. Well done to any East who manages that successfully. Also kudos to the East who dropped the queen of hearts under North’s king and successfully killed the heart ruffs. (Would South really have played A-8 from A1098?)

 

So let’s look at what happens if South makes the normal diamond lead. If East now errs by ducking, the above line of play leads to one down from which there is no recovery: small heart to the ace, heart back to the king, heart ruff, club to the ace, and another heart ruff. Even picking up the queen of spades now will not help. So East must win the ace of diamonds, play three rounds of spades, and give up two hearts plus a trick in each minor.There is no need to set up clubs and no entry to get to them anyway.

[luis]

>The important lessons for B/I players are opening East 1s or 2s or something and not opening west's hand.

 

Unfortunately my hand analysis prepared after the tournament was not mailed to players. Also, unfortunately, I did not know about this forum. So for those who are still interested in this thread, here is my analysis - which is unaffected by most of the above postings above:

 

West North East South

- Pass Pass Pass

1C Pass 1S Pass

2C Pass 2S

 

The East hand is too weak to open 1S but contains a good four-card major which disqualifies it for opening 2S. West does not have an easy rebid and the choice is between 1NT (flawed because of the singleton) and 2C (flawed because of only holding five clubs); West is not strong enough to rebid 2D, which is a “reverse” bid and requires at least 16 points.

 

Those of you who follow my advice on opening leads will find that you can’t defeat the contract if declarer is astute. If you start off with the ace and a small heart, however, you strike gold. Partner wins the king and returns the two of hearts (lowest card, signalling for the lower of the other two suits) which you ruff. When you return a club, partner wins the ace and pushes another heart through – allowing you to ruff with your jack. That is five tricks. Declarer needs to cash the ace of diamonds, pitch a diamond on the king of clubs, and finesse North for the queen of spades in order to make the remaining eight tricks. Well done to any East who manages that successfully. Also kudos to the East who dropped the queen of hearts under North’s king and successfully killed the heart ruffs. (Would South really have played A-8 from A1098?)

 

So let’s look at what happens if South makes the normal diamond lead. If East now errs by ducking, the above line of play leads to one down from which there is no recovery: small heart to the ace, heart back to the king, heart ruff, club to the ace, and another heart ruff. Even picking up the queen of spades now will not help. So East must win the ace of diamonds, play three rounds of spades, and give up two hearts plus a trick in each minor.There is no need to set up clubs and no entry to get to them anyway.

 

 

I'm afraid I disagree with this analysis while teaching rules is good for beginners teaching good bridge should be first. If you don't open SOMETHING on the east hand you will have a competitive problem. At least that is what I think. If you want to open a light 1s good, if you want to open an offshaped strong 2s so it be but open something.

[inquiry]

I'm afraid I disagree with this analysis while teaching rules is good for beginners teaching good bridge should be first. If you don't open SOMETHING on the east hand you will have a competitive problem. At least that is what I think. If you want to open a light 1s good, if you want to open an offshaped strong 2s so it be but open something.

 

I am very happy to agree with Luis on this point. In fact, I suggested in the original post in this thread that

"The problem with a 2S opening bid is that the textbooks tell

you not to preempt with a side four card major. I am not going

to tell you that the textbooks are wrong, but I believe 2S bid

is pretty good call with this hand. [but]...In fact, 1S is probably

better on this hand than 2S's."

 

So to put it another way, East should bid SOMETHING. :-)

[hoki]

Ben and Luis have both posted their views and they are entitled to them. Fortunately they both also point out the deficiencies in choice of opening bid, and that is fine.

 

However, they haven't answered the question as to whether it is right to teach bad habits to beginner and intermediate players. It is fair to say that different alternatives exist. If everyone would always bid the same on every hand, bridge could fast turn into quite a boring game.

 

I still maintain that if you gave the East hand to an expert bidding panel, there would be votes for all three actions (1S, 2S, and pass). Can't we leave it at that?

 

Happy New Year,

Oliver

[Free]

You call opening with the east hand a bad habbit??? I call opening with the west hand a bad habbit! :)

[luke warm]

i would open east 2S, even with 4 hearts.. but there's no way i could fault anyone for passing

 

i'd open west with 1D, rebidding 2C.. if pard bids 2H or 2S, i pass.. if it so happens that by opening i have allowed the ops a chance to make a major suit part score, well que sera.. the hand seems a tad too strong to pass out (to me), rule of 15 notwithstanding

[inquiry]

The problem with this hand, for most players, after PPP1C, was that they could not STOP bidding. Any opening action (pass out, 1S, 2S, or 1c/1d) could work out ok on this hand. But the fact that most pairs got much too high on this hand was the point. The people who stayed low, happened to open EAST with 2S.

 

Ben

[hotShot]

Well most is said about opening that and or not opening that hand.

 

One importend fact i missed here! If West opens his hand, than he knows that they should stop bidding as soon as possible!

He knows partner does not have opening strength and he holds minimum.

Keeping that in mind (even if ignoring it B) no problem should occure.

 

Have a nice day

hotShot