how to look for slam...

[goobers]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sakhjxxdakq109xcqj]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Holding this, I opened 1♦. It was a tossup between 2NT and 1♦ for me... any input would be appreciated, but this is a side point.

 

LHO overcalls 3♣, partner bids 3♥, and I didn't know how to look for slam at this point, so I suffered over it for a while and then just bid 4♥.

 

What would you bid?

 

Edit: In retrospect, I could've blackwooded, and if partner shows the remaining controls, I can bid the slam with confidence. If I had tried this at the table though, the response would've just been 2 keycards, so that club control is still in the air. In fact, the response would've been 5♠, so we could be committed to the slam even if we were off the club control.

[Winstonm]

You could start with 3S, then over whatever your partner responds you next bid 5H. This should ask partner to bid slam if he holds less than 2 losers in clubs, but it is a little aggressive as it assumes either the club ace or no loser hearts.

 

What else could partner do in this auction with: Qxx, AKxxx, xxx, Kx?

 

Myself, I think I would have bid 3S, but unless partner makes some kind of powerful move over this, I would content myself with 4H the next time.

[goobers]

You could start with 3S, then over whatever your partner responds you next bid 5H.  This should ask partner to bid slam if he holds less than 2 losers in clubs, but it is a little aggressive as it assumes either the club ace or no loser hearts.

Is this a common agreement? I was always under the impression that a voluntary 5 of a major inquired about trump suit quality.

 

And yeah, crap, I should've bid 3♠... oh well, live and learn.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't agree with the suggestion to bid 3S at all. That is a natural call. If partner bids 4S and you bid 5H be prepared for partner to bid six spades. 4C sets hearts as trumps and shows a slam try. Over 4H from partner you can bid 4S. 4C does not suggest a control.

[neilkaz]

You could start with 3S, then over whatever your partner responds you next bid 5H.  This should ask partner to bid slam if he holds less than 2 losers in clubs, but it is a little aggressive as it assumes either the club ace or no loser hearts.

Is this a common agreement? I was always under the impression that a voluntary 5 of a major inquired about trump suit quality.

 

And yeah, crap, I should've bid 3♠... oh well, live and learn.

A voluntary 5M as played by most when the opps have bid a suit that wasn't Q bid showing a control by your side asks for a control. However....

 

As you can see, an immediate 4NT may get your side too high when no slam makes. So, as I have told many partners and have been told myself, slow down the bidding when you have a good hand. Just bid 3♠ and allow PD to mention ♣ with a control at some point. If PD takes it as a natural 4 carder (not very likely since he could have made a neg X with both majors) and raises to 4, just pull to 5♦ and he really should get the message that there is no ♣ control in your hand.

 

Sometimes your combined hands will have the strength for slam but no way to get rid of a ♣ loser and a ♥ loser if lacking the ace of ♣

[goobers]

Why does 4♣ not suggest a control :(

 

Sorry, finding somewhat delicate slams like these are very difficult for me. Thanks for all responses.

[neilkaz]

Why does 4♣ not suggest a control :(

 

Sorry, finding somewhat delicate slams like these are very difficult for me. Thanks for all responses.

4♣ by PD after 3♠ certainly shows a control and then you know you cannot lose 2 tricks in the suit off the top and can try RKCB.

 

If PD shows 3 keys and denies the Q ask later, you still should be fine in 6♥ since the club K is almost certainly onside. If he shows 2 keys and the Q of ♥, you can hope to bring in the H suit for no losers on a good day in the K is onside and PD's 2nd key is the ace of ♣.

 

I find this to be a tough hand, and maybe you belong in ♦ as well.

 

Anyhow, slow down the bidding with good hands and try not to blast to RKCB if you can't make slam vs a possible response or are forced into it hoping.

[HeartA]

I don't agree with the suggestion to bid 3S at all. That is a natural call. If partner bids 4S and you bid 5H be prepared for partner to bid six spades. 4C sets hearts as trumps and shows a slam try. Over 4H from partner you can bid 4S. 4C does not suggest a control.

Well, I don't agree. 3S might be natural and risky that pd bid 6S over 6H. Again, 4C certainly shows control and pd could bid 6H while opps cash the first two tricks. I personally prefer 3S over 4C. The best way is to bid 5H directly over 3H. If I wanted to investigate strength of H, I would bid 4NT as RKC. So direct 5H should ask club control.

[Tola18]

Sorry, finding somewhat delicate slams like these are very difficult for me. Thanks for all responses.

This deal is a very good example why you shouldnt try for borderline hard slams if you and your partner dont know each other very well.

Waay too many possibilities to misunderstand each other and blow it this way or another.

 

If it is necessary for your immortal soul to bid this slam - it is better to throw it in than make a long sequence of guessing. this way you would have perhaps 50% chance. Otherwise literally none at all - too many possibilities to guess wrong.

 

There is also another practical aspect. Be careful with borderline slams if it is apparent there are wild distributions going. Try to win the contract, but dont strech it.

Here the Cl-bidder is perhaps short in diamonds - and will get a ruff directly at the lead.

 

The 4H-contract may be the very best in the long haul.

[Cascade]

For me:

 

4♣ initially just shows a hand too good for 4♥

 

4♣ then freely making a slam try above 4♥ would show a club control

 

5♥ immediately would show a slam try without a club control

 

Here I have slam opposite hearts headed by the AKQ and the club king or singleton or slightly worse hearts and the cA. With these minimum hands I can hardly expect partner to go slamming over 4♣ therefore I must bid 5♥.

[cherdano]

I don't agree with the suggestion to bid 3S at all. That is a natural call. If partner bids 4S and you bid 5H be prepared for partner to bid six spades. 4C sets hearts as trumps and shows a slam try. Over 4H from partner you can bid 4S. 4C does not suggest a control.

I thought all of this to be obvious. After 3S-4S, 5H is a cuebid, so partner will bid 5S without a club control, 6S with a 2nd round club control, and if he has a first round club control, you need to be lucky that he passes one of your 6H or 7H bids.

The cheapest cuebid is almost never control-showing.

[whereagles]

I would bid a direct 5♥, showing wide open clubs.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1D is fine.

 

You can bid 4D, which is certainly forcing (3H was

already forcing to game), and over 4H you can bid

4S, that should tell partner that you have a problem

in clubs.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: You dont mind playing 6D, and you can always

correct diamond to hearts.

[temp3600]

To me the choice is between 4♣, showing a slam try with a heart fit, and 5♥, asking partner to bid 6♥ with a club control.

I feel it is easier to reach the grand slam when we have it by starting with 4♣, so I'll bid that.

[SoTired]

I was always under the impression that a voluntary 5 of a major inquired about trump suit quality.

Bidding 5M asks for slam. If only one suit is unbid, then it asks for 1st or 2nd round control in the unbid suit. In an uncontested auction with 2 or no unbid suits, it asks about trump quality. In a contested auction with 2 unbid suits, it asks for 1st or 2nd round control in the opps suit.

 

3S would never occur to me. Too much chance for confusion. I think the first priority in slam auctions is set the trump suit. So put me in the 5H or 4C category.

 

4C does not necessarily show a club control. It shows a hand too good for 4H.

 

I think an immediate 5H bid has the least chance for confusion and the best chance to find a makable slam.

[Guest Jlall]

Bidding 5H is a demand for partner to bid slam with a 2nd round control, or cuebid with a first round control (or bid 5N with the guarded king). With Jxx of trumps to go along with your no control in clubs, that seems really rich to me. QJxx AQxxxx x Kx would certainly be a normal 3H bid. Slam is pretty bad opposite this considering the preempt was on your left. You're also at risk of ace of clubs club ruff if partner has Kxx of clubs (and if you bid 6N you risk partner having something like xxxx AKQxx xx Kx and going set in 6N with 6H cold). Also with trumps this bad and a preempt on your left, the likelihood of a 4-1 split has increased dramatically. Surely after 4C-4H-4S-5C-5D if partner has good trumps he will know to bid slam. This auction seems perfect to me, as you get the club control issue into play and you get partners trump quality into play. You also have an easier time getting to 7 when its right since partner has keycard available. Bidding 5H can also get you to some bad grands. If partner bids 6C over 5H, and you bid 6D, won't he be bidding slam with Qxx AKxxxx x Axx routinely? The problem stems from your poor trump holding.

 

As for the notion that 4C shows a control, I think that is simply wrong. You have exactly 2 ways to raise hearts below the game level, 4H and 4C. It is much much more important to define 4C as "good raise" and 4H as "minimum raise" than to attach meanings about controls. It is the same concept of 1H-(2S)-3S showing a good raise, and 1H-(2S)-4H showing a minimum GF raise. There is not enough room to do it all, and controls take a back seat. With any 18-19 balanced hand that had heart support I would expect partner to bid 4C. With any 15/16 and a stiff hand with heart support I would expect partner to bid 4C. Whether or not he has a control should be completely irrelevant.

[Finch]

I second everything Justin says.

This is similar to another auction that has been discussed at length:

 

3D 3H P 4D

 

 

where there was a big, though not unanimous vote, that 4D showed a good heart raise and did not promise a control.

 

The one bid I wouldn't make over 3H is 3S. That shows diamonds and spades, which I haven't got, and it will be very hard to recover.

 

I think the choice on this hand is between 4C and 4D. The advantage of 4D is that we might well want to play in diamonds. The advantage of 4C is that it shows a slam try.

[mikeh]

I second everything that Frances said (and I 'third' everything that Justin said).

 

Obviously, it would be nice if 4♣ promised a control, and in the bad old days, it did, because one could show a good or poor 4♥ raise by tone of voice :( Those days are thankfully long gone and so we have to resort to logic. Logic dictates that it is more important to distinguish between good and bad hands than to distinguish between good hands with a control and all other hands.

 

And the concept of faking a natural ♠ bid makes me shudder. Many, many years ago, it was a common North American idea (maybe wider spread than NA even) that one could commonly make 'advance cue bids'. Sonny Moyse used to rail against American slam bidding practices and this was one of them since even in the hands of North America's top experts, it led to confusion about which suit was trump.

 

The only alternative, 5♥ is wrong for all the reasons set out by Justin.

[Cascade]

1♦ (3♣) 3♥ (Pass)

4♣ (Pass) ?

 

♠ xxxx

♥ AKQxxx

♦ xx

♣ x

 

Does the 3♥ bidder or the 4♣ bidder (without a club control) make another move?

[mikeh]

1♦ (3♣) 3♥ (Pass)

4♣ (Pass)  ?

 

♠ xxxx

♥ AKQxxx

♦ xx

♣ x

 

Does the 3♥ bidder or the 4♣ bidder (without a club control) make another move?

It is true that 4♣ as a non-control-specific general slam try does not end all the issues, and may not lead to an ideal result. Much depends on further agreements.

 

If your partnershipp allows the use of last train, then the given hand may warrant a 4♦ call: from responder's p.o.v., he does not want opener to bypass 4♥ without a ♠ control, even if opener owns the ♣A.

 

So the auction might go 4♣ 4♦ 4♠ 5♣ 5♦ 6♥ or similar.

 

The point is that with good trumps, responder should recognize that opener, with bad trumps, has to have compensating values elsewhere and thus a non-specific mild try of 4♦ is in order with the given hand.

 

Lacking that tool, the issue becomes much tougher (which is why LTC was invented, of course). Absent LTC, I suspect that we would languish in 4♥.

 

That does not detract from the decision to bid 4♣. The fact that the given hand works better via an immediate 5♥ really is not persuasive, since one can construct other hands on which an immediate 5♥ is fatal....as Justin noted, give responder a weaker trump suit and more outside, and 5♥ leads inexorably to a failing slam.

[pclayton]

1♦ (3♣) 3♥ (Pass)

4♣ (Pass) ?

 

♠ xxxx

♥ AKQxxx

♦ xx

♣ x

 

Does the 3♥ bidder or the 4♣ bidder (without a club control) make another move?

When pard makes a slam try and you hold AKQ-6th of trump of your suit, you should cooperate. A Last Train 4♦ if available feels right.

 

I agree that 4♣ doesn't have to show a control, since we are jammed. What I'm less clear about is whether or not it promises ♥ support.

 

For instance, what would you bid with AK, Jx, AKQxxxx, QJ?

 

I also agree that 5♥ is a bit much, but I wouldn't criticize it too sharply, since the chances that pard has specifically. Even Justin's example of Qxx, AQxxxx, x, Kxx gives us a play, although switch the A and K of H and we have no play.

[Finch]

I agree that 4♣ doesn't have to show a control, since we are jammed. What I'm less clear about is whether or not it promises ♥ support.

 

For instance, what would you bid with AK, Jx, AKQxxxx, QJ?

 

4♦, unless for some reason we've not agreed 3♥ is game forcing.

 

There are certainly auctions where the cue does not promise support.

1D P 1H 1S

2S

 

for example

 

But these are auctions where opener is stuck for a forcing bid, not where he is already in a game forcing auction (2S here is often either a good hand with heart support or a big diamond hand, but doesn't have to be)

[Guest Jlall]

I agree that 4♣ doesn't have to show a control, since we are jammed. What I'm less clear about is whether or not it promises ♥ support.

 

For instance, what would you bid with AK, Jx, AKQxxxx, QJ?

4D.

 

4C must be coming in hearts since with spades we would bid 3S, and with diamonds we would rebid diamonds.

[neilkaz]

You all have me convinced that my thoughts of bidding 3♠ based on the fact that PD didn't make a neg dbl are too brash. Perhaps PD has 4♠ and 6♥ or perhaps we cannot recover from the confusion.

 

A direct 4♣ certainly has to show slam interest and controls can be found later if needed.

[cherdano]

I second everything that Frances said (and I 'third' everything that Justin said).

Heh, I was first to second, so you are fourthing him.