rkc misadventure

[kenberg]

I was S, the heart opener, on the following auction[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxhkdaxxxcakqjtxx&s=sakxxhjt87xxdkqcx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♥ 2♥ 4NT Pass

5♣ Pass 6♣ Pass

6♥ AllPass[/hv]

 

 

2♥ showed spades and a minor, 4N was rkc for hearts, 5♣ showed 1 or 4. That's where the understanding ceased. In some advanced versions of rkc, 6♣ askes about second or third round club controls but we don't play that so I guess 6♣ shows clubs and I should pass. My bad. But as I though about this further: What was partner planning on doing over 5♦ (showing 0 or 3)? He cannot get out in 5NT. 5♥ is to play, 5♠ asks about the Q (of hearts), and 5NT asks for my cheapest K. Further, it's something of a fluke that he holds the K of hearts, allowing him to interpret my keycard response as giving the count on aces. If his K of hearts and x of diamonds was the K of diamonds and x of hearts he would be equally interested in a club slam but unable to interpret an rkc response usefully.

 

So: Maybe we should revert to regular blackwood after interference? Or at least in the case where partner could have set hearts as trump (as here by bidding 2♠ over 2♥)?

 

We need to deal with some issues here, advice is sought.

 

Thanks, Ken

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The simple soultion, make a forcing raise

of partners suit,

... 2S as limit or better is one option.

 

And have the option to bid your own

suit in a forcing way,

... play a direct 3C as natural and forcing,

while with weak clubs go though 2NT

(Good-Bad), or play it the the other way

round.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Echognome]

4NT agrees hearts. So I think the mistake is North's.

 

I wouldn't fault a direct 6♣ (no south will move over that). However, starting with a natural and forcing 3♣ will at least get the correct suit agreed.

[Free]

I never understand why people bid RKC out of nothing, especially if it sets trumps, to sign off in a new suit at 6-level. What's wrong with a simple 2♠?

[Guest Jlall]

Have to disagree with my friend Matt... asking for keycards doesn't agree a suit, it just agrees which suit it's keycard for. When partner bids 6C it clarifies what is happening. Certainly in many auctions 6C would ask for third round control, but when partner hasn't even made a bid other than 4N yet that shouldn't apply. Asking for keycard in one suit then bidding a slam in a different suit is somewhat common especially in auctions like this.

 

By the way if you thought he was asking for third round control why didn't you bid 7?

[kenrexford]

This makes no sense. 2♠ would presumably agree hearts and limit+, which might be problematic if the resulting auction bypasses 4NT and partner did wish to agree hearts (a different hand). Thus, 4NT as RKCB for hearts makes some sense.

 

4NT as RKCB for hearts, but a second suit might be the focus or contempltaed end contract, also makes sense, if that is your agreement.

 

If 6♣ has no agreed meaning, then North is clearly at fault. For two reasons.

 

First, if 6♣ has a theoretical meaning (debated here), then why not start with the clear 3♣ call? Going ambiguous unnecessarily makes little sense.

 

Second, if 6♣ has no meaning, then there are obviously no right or wrong choices for South after 6♣.

 

The only way South has any blame is if the agreement, or perhaps a default agreement in ambiguous auctions, was violated.

 

Sure, 6♥ might also be a "breah" if 6♣ was a grand slam try, but hedging in an ambiguous auction usually pays in the long run. On that note, it seems that North also had the last chance to hedge, with a 6NT call. It might not make on a heart lead, but I bet it actually does.

[pigpenz]

yes i agree with JUSTIN, 4nt asks about key cards in hearts and tends to imply heart support but once partner bids 6♣ that is to play.

 

But i would tend to come up with an unusual vs unusual solution for defense to michaels.

[kenberg]

I accept the blame for not passing 6C. I did not think it asked for later control. Whatever I might have thought (I didn't really think enough) I was sure that it wasn't asking for third round control. Not much is left except natural. I suppose it could be a source of tricks in clubs and all keys, inviting 7H, but that's far fetched w/o discussion. It's sort of a know your partner thing, but all in all I accept the blame, or most of it here. My slight out is that since partner is stuck after a 5D response it seems that he may as well just blast to 6. The hell with the grand.

 

He could have bid 3C, my thought at the time, but it it might not help much. Say I rebid 3N, and he rebids 4C. Do I cue 4S with my stiff club? I suppose, but I wouldn't be happy.

 

What he wants to do is to check on my aces, then bid some number of clubs, and system/partner should allow this. Here partner (me) failed but it seems that slight variations can lead to system failure. A 5D response by me would cause grave damage and, as mentioned above, it's lucky pard has the king of hearts to enable him to properly read the 5C bid.

 

 

So I want to push on the following: Should we, in some or all competitive auctions, declare that rkc is off. The obvious choice (other than always off in comp or always still on in comp) is to say it is on if no forcing bid to set trump is available (eg 1H-(3S)), and off when there is a way to set trumps and 4N bidder does not set them. That would make it off here, and we would have been playing 6C.

 

 

Along these lines, after the 2H intervention, what do you make of 4C? We play splinters of course, but I have heard it suggested that after interference it may be better to play splinters only in their suit (so 3S=splinter here) but have splinters off in other suits. Perhaps useful, but only if there is a meaning then attached to 4C. Anyone out there using some non-splinter meaning?

 

Anyway, I should have passed. But I have been lackadaisical about some possible problems in rkc and I submit the general problem for discussion. It is unlikely to be a virgin topic.

 

 

 

Ken

[kenberg]

yes i agree with JUSTIN, 4nt asks about key cards in hearts and tends to imply heart support but once partner bids 6♣ that is to play.

 

But i would tend to come up with an unusual vs unusual solution for defense to michaels.

We play U/U style for Michaels if it goes 1D-(2D) since there are two known suits. With 1H-(2H), 2S=LR+ but minor suit bids are natural. It seems they must be.

[Guest Jlall]

Some more thoughts...

 

The argument that 6C shouldn't be natural because he could have bid 3C could apply in the same way with 4N can't have a heart fit because partner can start with 3S. Obviously he has lots of room to make forcing bids no matter what he has, but he has chosen to ask for keycards. Surely there are hands where this approach is right as sometimes you won't be able to bid keycard later, sometimes you want to shut them out, sometimes you don't want to give away information, whatever. 4N has to have SOME meaning.

 

OP suggests that maybe this should be straight aces. The question is whether that is a more useful agreement than keycard. I don't know, I certainly would like to bid keycard with x KQxx KQJxx AQx and wouldnt want to muck around. I would also want to ask for straight aces with x x AKQJxxxx KQJ. Sure I could start with a forcing raise on the first or start with 3D if it came to that, but something bad might happen along the way. I would guess that wanting to ask for keycards occurs with a much higher frequency than wanting to ask for aces and some of the hands that want to ask for aces would benefit from keycard as well or would have the trump king anyways.

 

As for the question of an alternative meaning for 4C in competition, I know BBF is in love with fit jumps and that is the only main alternative that I can see.

[mikeh]

4N was a silly bid: it was gambling that S would show enough keycards to justify the call, and S did not. I disagree with Justin here: I see no logical reason for 6♣ to be an offer to play: to me it announces all keycards and is a grand slam try.

 

I have no trouble with the concept that asking for keycards does not set the trump: but the only exceptions (for me) are when the 4N bidder bids above opener's suit (had opener bid 1♣, and responder bid 6♥ over the keycard response) or notrump.

 

One reason that this approach works is that 3♣ by north should be natural and forcing. If opener bids 3N, 4♣ announces a strong desire to have ♣s as trump, strong slam interest (altho responder may pass 4N or 5♣) and no interest in making a straightforward quanitative try.

 

On the given hand, opener should move over 4♣, either by way of 4♦ (understanding that responder's 4♥ bid, if made, is not an offer to play.... neither opener nor responder have shown a desire to play ♥s and both had opportunity to do so) or 4♠.

 

If opener were to bid 4♠, it is an interesting question as to whether 4N by responder should be an offer to play, keycard in ♣s or a bid that says "I have too much to signoff in 5♣ but not enough to force to slam.. do you have anything useful over there?". The latter treatment is my agreement in my current serious partnership.

[Guest Jlall]

One reason that this approach works is that 3♣ by north should be natural and forcing.

And if it were to go 4S p p 4N ? I doubt you'd play that as keycard, so you're pretty screwed.

 

On the other hand if you have a heart fit you can always bid 2S then 4S p p 4N would definitely be keycard.

 

I don't understand why the argument that 3C is forcing is mentioned by all but no one mentions that opener could have bid 2S and then 4N.

 

Not saying I agree with 4N on this hand or anything.

[sceptic]

can he not bid 5spades ( highest non bid suit) after 5 diamonds showing 0 or 3 as partner drop me off at 5nt please?

[kenberg]

This argument that just as 3C could be used to show clubs (it could, we play it as forcing) also 2S could have been used to set hearts came up in our discussion and in fact was the point at which I became convinced that I was wrong in bidding over 6C. I wasn't all that much claiming before that I was right, only that I wanted to think about it. But since partner had a clear way of telling me that hearts were trump and then bidding rkc, I am convinced I should have passed 6C. Our teammates, btw, play negative free bids so a direct 3C bid would have been unavailable to them. Settling the implications of that is their problem since I avoid nfbs like the plague.

 

I hope to hear more about the possibility of making rkc off in these hopefully well defined circumstances where the asker could have first set trump but didn't. As useful as rkc is, it is also useful to be able to get out in 5NT (or 5C) when there are not enough aces. That's going to be a lot easier a lot oftener if we haven't cluttered up the space with the Q ask and such things. I don't have a confident view here about what is best.

[sceptic]

4NT agrees hearts. So I think the mistake is North's.

 

I thought you could use 4NT there to ask about the Keycards as hearts set, but if you made a bid in a suit that was not part of your agreements i.e. 6 clubs, then that was where you wanted to play as you were captain of the ship?

[kenberg]

can he not bid 5spades ( highest non bid suit) after 5 diamonds showing 0 or 3 as partner drop me off at 5nt please?

No, 5S asks for the trump Q. After a 1-4 or 0-3 response you need, or you usually have, a Q ask and the lowest ranking non-playable suit is usually it.

[keylime]

I disagree with the notion that 4NT is just "keycard" versus "keycard for hearts". I have been of the view for a lengthy period of time that keycard for last suit bid often loses more than it gains.

 

I do tho think a much better auction is possible once you start with 3♣. I dislike the 2S as LR or better for hearts with correction into clubs, because pard may not be in on the act until it's too late.

 

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

[HeartA]

I agree with Justin that 6C was to play. If North wanted to ask further, there are choices available below 6 level: 5D, 5S and 5NT. Before a suit is agreed, 4NT could be defined as Ace (not KC) asking.

[blackshoe]

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

When I can get my partners to agree to it, I prefer to play that when you can explicitly agree a suit and make the auction forcing, a jump directly to 4NT is simple Blackwood. The problem lies in getting them to agree to it (and then to remember it ;) ).

[neilkaz]

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

When I can get my partners to agree to it, I prefer to play that when you can explicitly agree a suit and make the auction forcing, a jump directly to 4NT is simple Blackwood. The problem lies in getting them to agree to it (and then to remember it ;) ).

Agreeing with you 100% and stressing that it can sometimes pay to not make the auction confusing for PD. Thus I prefer to start with 3♣ here, although I would play 4NT as ace asking only here and would bid it if 100% sure PD would know it isn't RKC.

 

If you start with 3♣, do you really think that the opps are going to bid beyond 4♠ and prevent your next 4NT call ?

 

.. neilkaz ..

[marcD]

I would give North 90% of the blame. In a casual partnership having agreed to play RKC, I think 4NT sets Hearts as trumps. North had an easy and non ambiguous 3C (followed by 4C and then south can deny interest in C by bidding 4NT, any cue bid would set C as trumps). My only concern would be that 4NT be taken as quantitative (since 2S followed by 4NT is available) but I think unless clearly agreed 4NT is quantitative south should respond to RKC in H.

6C can clearcly be interpreted as bid 7H if you have something in clubs xx or CQ(since N is not interested in finding out about Kings)

[SoTired]

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

Putting aside for a moment whether North should bid 4N, I think 4N as responder's first bid is regular BW makes much more sense than playing 4N as keycard for hearts. I think an opening 4N or 4N response to an opening 1x bid is regular blackwood (or "Pinpoint BW"). If responder wanted to bid 4N RKC for hearts, 2S followed by 4N removes all doubt. Therefore, 4N was straight BW and 6C was to play.

[inquiry]

Coming in late to this thread... .here is a useful agreement to include in your RKC bag of tricks....

 

If there was a way to make a forcing raise of partners suit (with or without competition), then 4NT is NEVER RKC for partners suit. It can be a lot of other things, depending upon the auction and your side agreements, including plain Blackwood, but not RKC.

 

On this auction (1H-2H overcall), you in fact have forcing raises galore. Splinter, and ususual versus unusual for example. Perhaps (depending on what you play) even double of 2H then 4NT.

[keylime]

Ken,

 

I had an "a-ha" while I was writing to some Ultra Club notes with Larry -

 

I was thinking that since there's a known 2 suiter that 3NT and such may not be optimal. How easy would it be for you and pard to play something like:

 

1M (2M) ?

 

cuebid of their major = LR+

3NT = a "good raise" to 4M; start of any slam tries

4X below 4M = fit jumps, with exception of splinter in their known suit if possible

4M = preemptive

4NT = RKC

 

new suit bid then 4NT = old school blackwood

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

If you have no agreement that 6Cs 'asks' for third round(or some other holding) pass that 6C call. Doesn't 4NT followed by 5NT show all of the Keys and suggest a grand slam in your methods?

 

I would have liked a forcing bid in clubs after that 2H call. Some hands might need to blast RKC, however, changing the RKC rules should be avoided since 'forgetting an exception' will normally be a shortcut to disaster.

 

Regards,

Robert