hrothgar Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Ron and I played a pleasant game versus Ben and Misho last night. Here is a rather depressing hand where our "fine tuned" relay system missed a game that the natural bidders found. S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 Auction 1C - 1D 1C = strong, 1D - game forcing (denies 5440 shape)1N - 2C 1N = minimum opening, 2C = relay2S - 4S 2S = 4 Spades and 4 card minor balanced I'm posting this hand because I think it brings up an interesting question about relay methods: After a 1D response to a strong club opening, I have two choices: I can rebid 1H to ask partner to describe his handI can rebid 1S+ and describe my hand to partner In principle, the decision to ask rather than show is based on strength. Holding a minimum hand I should show. Holding a maximum hand, I should ask. I decided to treat my 11 slam point hand as a minimum (I really didn't like the AK tight in hearts). In retrospect, this was deadily since it caused Ron to give up on Slam and blast immediately to game. If I had chosen to relay, we'd get to the laydown grand. Issue 1: Make sure to have good definitions of minimum versus maximumFor future reference, I think that we'll need to define minimum as base or base + 1. Issue 2: Relays often work more efficiently if balanced hands ask rather than show. [if a balanced hand is facing an unbalanced hand its much easier to recognize whether honors are working that when a unbalanced hand is facing a balanced hand] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 I enjoyed the game, although I wasn't playing my best bridge (closer to my worse). Can't help you with how the auction should go using relays...out of my league. Luis can probably help. Here is how it would go if I held these cards... 1NT 2H (1NT = 14-16, 2H = jacoby)3D 4C (3D = super accept, 4S, max, diamond cards.)4NT 5D (4C Slam try, no heart control, 4NT bl, 5D 03)6S Pass Over 5D, I would be thinkign that grand is possilbe, but I don't see any way to investigate it. To drill down to north having 3H (so you can ruff one) and the AQJ of diamonds is quite a feat. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I've conducted a study about this kind of hands about 1 year ago and my conclusion was that hands with 26+ combined points and 10+ combined controls (A=2,K=1) should investigate slam when there's a fit. So in this hand somebody must have asked for distribution, controls and location of controls eventually bailing out to game or the 5 level if the hands don't "fit".That's why in German Moscito we always ask for the distribution and controls as long as there is some hope for slam (when slam is surely out we just bid the best game) Simple German Moscito auction: 1c - 1h (spades)1s - 2d (just spades)2h - 2s (short clubs or 6322)2n - 3d (5-3-3-2)3h - 4d (5 controls) Now with a 9 card fit in spades and 11 combined controls south knows that there are excellent prospects for slams and can continue asking eventually reaching 6s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 From my knowledge of Viking Club, lot of asking made then one hand breaks the relay to bid naturally. Granted, I know VERY LITTLE about your method, but here's my view from the KLP camp: 1. I think the system when it gains a certain level of sophistication, a question is asked: What is really a min? What is really an opener? What is really a set of hands worth a try at slam? Is our system going to be asking/showing? 2. KLP itself in version 8 went through the last question. It was horrible: some sequences were asking, some were showing. It was an incredible strain on both of us. Then KLPV9 went to straight asking: that became better, BUT, opener's forcing club now had ZERO rights in trying to sign off if responder was interested. Finally, at V13, we finally came up with guidelines that are clear, that evolved over the mistakes we were making, and sound principles put into place. Like I said I know very very little of your method, but I think if you make asking bids, you got mild slam interest or more. If you show however, you're not quite in the slam asking zone, but you got enough working values to let opener set the tone of the auction. P.S. Even with the new guidelines, every now and then, it gets hairy - especially over interference. However, it's a lot better, LIGHT YEARS better, than what we had. Sometimes, simple works. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 KLP auction, assuming bottom hand opened before top hand: 1C - 1H (black suit, G/F)1S (temporizes for spades) - 2S (shows 11-13)2NT (kickback ask) - 3D (0/3 kcs)3NT (spec king) - 4S (denies all kings but this one)5C (needs club help for slam) - 6D (yes, and good d's)7S (ty pard, you are the best) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 KLP auction, assuming bottom hand opened before top hand: 1C - 1H (black suit, G/F)1S (temporizes for spades) - 2S (shows 11-13)2NT (kickback ask) - 3D (0/3 kcs)3NT (spec king) - 4S (denies all kings but this one)5C (needs club help for slam) - 6D (yes, and good d's)7S (ty pard, you are the best How would this auction be any different without the Jack of Diamonds?Alternatively, what differs if responder held 5=2=3=3 shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 For whats its worth, here are the relay sequences S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 1C - 1D 1D = Game Force1N - 2C 1N = balanced or 44412S - 2N 2S = 4 Spades, 4432 shape, 2-3 Hearts3C - 3D 3C = Spades + Diamonds3H - 3S 3H = 4243 shape, 3S = ask for slam points4D - 4H 4D = 11 Slam points 4H = Spiral Scan5C - 5D 5C = 1-2 controls in Spades + Diamonds, 0 or 3 controls in Clubs5H - 5S 5H = Spiral Scan, 5S = 0 controls in H or AK of Hearts7S After the 5S Bid, you can place all 11 controls with certainty If I had decided to ask rather than show 1C - 1D 1D = Game Force 1H - 1N 1N = balanced or 44412C - 2N 2N = 5332 with spades3C - 3S 3S = 5=3=3=2 shape4C - 4N 4C = Slam Point Ask, 4N = 9 Slam Points5C - 5H 5C = Spiral Scan, 5H = 1-2 controls in spades / 0 or 3 controls in Hearts6S Sadly, we aren't going to be able to find the grand this time.The 3S and 4N bids used up a lot of bidding spade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Several times my partner has given up on slam with bothsides appeared to have minimums. He knew that if I heldthe right few cards that slam would make but thought thatcase so unlikely as to be ignored. Well, those cases can'tbe ignored and it is exactly those cases that convince meto use a symmetric relay system. You have the technologyso at least use it to check for slam even if you think it isunlikely. I put all the blame on your partner for notinvestigating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 There is a cost to delicate exploration. In this case, the hand declaring the spade contract would be showing shape/controls. This would allow the defense to defend double dummy. My declarer play is weak enough that I need at the help I can get. Furthermore, as I noted earlier, I am probably too strong to show a minimum.I think any charges accrue to me this time arround. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I disagree with all of the above - I was lazy. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 My instinct tells me that defending against slam is often easierthan defending against a lower level contract. Initiating a trickseems to have greater potential for success or error thanfollowing to a trick. It seems to me declarer has most of the workto do in a slam contract. In a weird sort of way, divulging moreabout your hand may be good because you might be able tomake more inferences about the opening lead. The short answeris that I haven't found it to be the case that exchanging informationwhen slam seems possible has hurt me. Even in non-relay systems,a sequence of cue bids is very similar to continued relays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 I agree with this Todd. Like I said, I was lazy and it was hot here - 38C. My ftf pd and I, as I told Richard, had a policy that if one of us did not relay a hand out and a slam was missed, then would be relayer had to shout partner a drink. I think this is emminently reasonable as the ability to bid good slams, (and Grands), is one reason why we play relays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 KLP auction, assuming bottom hand opened before top hand: 1C - 1H (black suit, G/F)1S (temporizes for spades) - 2S (shows 11-13)2NT (kickback ask) - 3D (0/3 kcs)3NT (spec king) - 4S (denies all kings but this one)5C (needs club help for slam) - 6D (yes, and good d's)7S (ty pard, you are the best There's a lot of inference here, very hard to explain per se - but will attempt to do so. S K8652 H T76 D AQJ C A6 S AQT9 H AK D KT43 C 542 1C - 2D (g/f balanced hand)2NT (balanced) - 3H (xfer to spades, quality not good)3S - 4C4NT (1430) - 5D (0/3)5S - 5NT (asking for kings)6D (got that) - 6H (needs heart help for grand)7S If the shape is 5-3-2-3 or 5-3-3-2, the bidding would be in the middle a little different. Realize we are phasing in fragment bids... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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