respondingto take out double

[pigpenz]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=s4hkq105dq8542cq63]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Auction:

1♣ double pass your call?

 

is this easy or what?

[Cascade]

I bid 1♥. Later if I compete I bid diamonds. Partner will know I don't have five hearts since I would compete with hearts or jump in hearts orginally with those hands. Therefore it is very likely that I have five or more diamonds and partner will bid accordingly.

[the hog]

2H

 

"is this easy or what? " Yes.

[jdeegan]

:P 2♥

All other bids, zero. This is not a particularly good hand given its stiff spade and club queen, but it's no dog either. Gotta get it off my chest, NOW.

 

What about the diamond suit? Fugeddaboudit. Plenty of time to find out about that on the 5% of all hands where it matters.

[inquiry]

2♥ - automatic

[neilkaz]

2♥ and this is easy. Too strong to bid just 1, and I certainly will show a good 4 card major in preference to a ratty 5 card ♦ suit.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[helene_t]

2♥. If partner bids 3♣ I bid 3NT. If opps bid 3♣ or 2♠ I bid 3♦.

[HeartA]

I have 9 count (CQ may not be very useful though), with 5-4 two suits. 1D, 1H and 1NT (1NT the worst imo) are out. 2C was too strong of course. That leaves only two choices: 2D and 2H. While others say easy 2H, I don't think that "easy" (easy with MP, but it's IMP). Let's see what happens if I bid 2D.

 

1) If pd bid 2H, I would raise to 3 (assuming it's forcing since pd dbl and bid a suit and I jumped) and I don't have a problem. You could raise to 4H if you prefer so.

2) if pd bid 2S/2NT/3C, I could bid 3H, showing 5-4.

3) if pd raises to 3D, I could bid 3H as well.

4) if pd passes, I am fine with it.

 

The only problem with 2D is that my diamonds are not good. I don't have objection with 2H, but I slightly prefer 2D. If we have a game in hearts, we wouldn't miss it. If we have a slam (thought not likely), we might end up with the wrong fit if I bid 2H first.

[the hog]

"The only problem with 2D is that my diamonds are not good. I don't have objection with 2H, but I slightly prefer 2D"

 

The problem with 2D is that partner will NEVER believe you have 4H. 3H after 3D is showing a stopper, not 4H.

[Robert]

Hi HeartA

 

Playing IMPs or MPs you do not want to miss bidding game. Bidding 2Ds with this hand is an attempt to miss 'bidding a game.' Finding a 4-4 heart fit is almost impossible 'after' you bid 2Ds.

 

Bidding 2Ds denies 4 hearts. A 4-4 heart fit is your most likely chance to bid game with this example hand.

 

"If" partner bids 2H over your 2D bid, he would have to hold "5+ hearts" and also a hand 'too strong' to simply overcall 1H.

 

2) 3Hs after partner bids 2S, 2NT or 3C 'would not show a 4 card heart suit.'

 

3) 3Hs after partner raises to 3D 'would also not' show a 4 card heart suit.

 

4) If partner passed 2Ds, you just might have missed a 4-4 heart fit that makes game.

 

You may bid this way 'after some private agreements', however, the vast majority of bidders would not bid this way.

 

Regards,

Robert

[mcphee]

2H shows what we have, about 8-10 with 4 or more H, bidding 1D or 1H simply does not indicate this much in values and is what you would do with nada in hi card values. When we bid 1H partner is not going to raise smply because he holds 4 card support with many hands that will produce a game. Almost any 4-4-4-1 hand that is a reasonable t/o dble could give game a play.

[Codo]

As much as I share Cascadesd views in many situations, here I hadn`t understood him. In Europe it is more or less automatic that a non-jump suit bid shows 0-7 HCPs, so there is no way to bid at the one level after the double with this 5431 Hand.

 

I think too, that 2 ♥ is automatic, even playing imps and a nobrainer at mps.

[pigpenz]

it was an interesting hand when looking at the myhands for this one i was suprised at how many people bid 1♥ only :blink:

[awm]

I actually like a 1♦ response. Obviously this is to some degree an underbid, and doesn't suggest the likely best strain (hearts). But it does describe my longest suit.

 

In most fields, 1♦ will virtually never buy the contract. People just don't sell to it, especially when the opponents have a (likely) eight-card spade fit. Assuming I will get another chance to bid, I can try 2♥ at next turn which accurately conveys both my shape and values. Any other sequence seems somewhat problematic -- a direct 2♥ will often buy the contract when a diamond partial would be better, a direct 2♦ could easily miss a 4-4 heart fit and game.

[EricK]

♥Maybe one should play transfers at the two level in response to a take out double. So here you can bid 2♣ as a transfer to ♦ followed by 2♥

[HeartA]

Robert and Ron,

 

So you will never be able to bid 2 suits after pd's dbl? I believe 3H after 2D shows 2nd suit, not stopper. What if you have another diamond?

[Cascade]

As much as I share Cascadesd views in many situations, here I hadn`t understood him. In Europe it is more or less automatic that a non-jump suit bid shows 0-7 HCPs, so there is no way to bid at the one level after the double with this 5431 Hand.

At this level I prefer to have a five-card major to jump.

 

This is our response structure of major bids after (1m) X (P) :

 

1Major - four-card suit up to 9(10) hcp or five-card suit and very weak. Partner is expected to raise to 2Major almost every time they have four trumps.

 

2Major - five-card suit 6-9 points

 

3Major - five-card suit better than 2Major and not enough for game

 

We can also bid 4Major or cue-bid with stronger hands

[mikeh]

2♥ looks normal.

 

Bidding ♦ and then ♥s leads to too many complications.

 

1stly, bidding just 1♦ misstates the strength of the hand, altho not by much.

 

2ndly, while we may get a chance to rebid 2♥, that is by no means assured: LHO could bid 3♣ (or 2♣ and be raised) or 1♠ and buy a raise.

 

Bidding 2♥ at least gets our primary feature across (in any form of scoring, KQ10x of a major is more important than Qxxxx of a minor) and I can bid 3♦ next time without partner misunderstanding my hand: I would rarely venture into a 4 card minor on my second bid if holding a 5 card major, but the reverse is commonplace.

 

There is some justification for 1♥ because we have some reason to suspect that partner is about to bid ♠s, and a bid of 2♠ over our 2♥ leaves us awkwardly placed to both bid ♦s and show our ♣ stopper. After 1♥ 1♠, we can bid 2♦ which should logically force another bid, over which we can bid notrump.... chooosing notrump as our third choice will adequately describe our stopper. And our hand devalues opposite a ♠ bid, although it is still game force material.

 

On balance, I opt for the simple life: 2♥ is the 'normal' bid in all standard methods with which I am familiar... Wayne's treatment is idiosyncratic, not standard.

[Al_U_Card]

Perhaps wrongly, I was taught with this hand to respond 2H and if it came back to me and I could bid 3D, to do so showing 9-11 hcp with 4H and 5+ D. With 5 H I would rebid 3H and forget the D suit completely.

[pclayton]

2♥ looks fine. My Q♣ is probably useless, but we do have a double fit.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I can bid both of my suits 'if' I get another chance. I would bid 3Ds over a black suit bid by the other pair.

 

Using your methods would you want to bid 3Hs after an auction of

(1C)-X-p-2D-(3C)-p-p-? or (1C)-X-p-2D-p-p-(3C)?

 

If I bid at the 3 level, my partner can 'prefer' either red suit 'at the three level.'

Using your methods 'if' you bid 3Hs(a big 'if' IMO), you would 'force' the bidding to the four level 'if' your partner prefers Ds to Hs.

 

This hand is worth a mild invite(in both of our methods we both jumped to the two level) my bidding 'might' go as high as the three level. You would have to decide 'if' the four level was worthwhile with the 'same example hand' after your partner 'did not' show any additional values.

 

Any method that you chose to use is fine with me. I play a lot of non standard agreements. Showing a natural suit of hearts after making a non-forcing bid in Ds in reply to a takeout double does not seem to be the best use of the bidding space.

 

I have been playing almost four decades now and the other pair tends to bid 3Cs fairly often, my methods are to show hearts at the two level and Ds 'if' possible at the three level.

 

Your methods would appear to require you to bid 3Hs and get a possible correction at the 4D level. I just do not see the advantage of sometimes either forcing the bidding to the four level 'or' passing out 3Cs with the given example hand 'that we both felt was only worth a mild invite.

 

Regards,

Robert

[1eyedjack]

♥Maybe one should play transfers at the two level in response to a take out double. So here you can bid 2♣ as a transfer to ♦ followed by 2♥

Ja I like transfer jump responses, but on this hand I bid 2♦ transfer to ♥. I do not rate this hand worth a transfer to ♦ then 2♥ follow up, which I would play as one round forcing.

[the hog]

HeartA, even if I had another D I would bid 2H. Another question to ask yourseldf is how would you feel if pd passed your 2D bid with

Axxx

Axxx

KJx

xx

This is a minimum t/o double and I would not expect partner to bid again with this. You can always show Ds later, but your prime duty is to show a 4 card M in response to pd's X. After all, where is your most likely game if you have one, 5D or 4H?

[cherdano]

I am with Adam, I like 1♦. I think with all these queens, this hand is only worth 2H when partern has 4-card support. I don't really want to play a 4-3 heart fit on a trump lead unless partner wants to. Bidding 1♦ and 2♥ will actually suggest that (and even give a hint of my spade shortness). Even if I get the chance to bid 3♦ after 2♥ and 3♣, we may actually be too high. Starting with 1♦, I am only badly placed if opponents jump to 3♣.

[HeartA]

HeartA, even if I had another D I would bid 2H. Another question to ask yourseldf is how would you feel if pd passed your 2D bid with

Axxx

Axxx

KJx

xx

This is a minimum t/o double and I would not expect partner to bid again with this. You can always show Ds later, but your prime duty is to show a 4 card M in response to pd's X. After all, where is your most likely game if you have one, 5D or 4H?

This is a perfect fit. Even so, pd would pass my 2H and we would still miss a game. There is only one IMP difference between playing 2D and 2H. Besides, opps might not let use play 2D and I would have a chance to bid 3H. Knowing the fit of two red suits (and precious DKJx), pd then might bid 4H.