bidding over preempts

[jillybean]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=skq97ha3djcajt962&s=sajhj82dqt875ckq5]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     3♦*   Dbl

 Pass  3♥    Dbl   4♦

 Pass  6♣    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

* transfer to hearts (7) could be weak or strong :D

 

Hi,

here is a hand I played on BBO. (correction) I think my double was ok, but if my partner bid ♠ she may be expecting more than 2 AJ are nice thouigh.

I have terrible ♦'s for the 4♦ bid but what else?!

Luckily my partner made the right bid and we got a top :P

[pclayton]

Wow people still play transfer preempts? :P :D

 

I assume your double of 3♦ showed them. Pard's 3♥ sets a GF.

 

Just pass the double; they gave you a free ride here. 4♦ is bidding your hand twice. Pard will bid 4♣ and you can raise.

 

It might be asking a lot to get to 6♣ here; even then it needs 2-2 trump I think

[jillybean]

I assume your double of 3♦ showed them. Pard's 3♥ sets a GF.

We didnt have any agreements on the double, is standard showing ♦ here?

I thought the X was just t/o so 2♦ showed ♦'s, bad as they were.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

When you hold a minimum hand 'without' support for an unbid suit, you are allowed to pass.

 

My guess is that you were lucky here. Your double followed by a 'free bid at the four level' would show a much stronger hand using most partnership bidding methods.

 

They opened the bidding with a bid 'showing' your Jxx holding, this should set off the alarm bells for some caution. Also holding 'AJ' of spades(the unbid major!) and intending the double to be for takeout suggests that you believe that partner will not expect more than two card support for an 'unbid' major after you make a takeout double.

 

I trust that 'if' they opened a natural weak 2D bid, this hand would find a pass.

 

Regards,

Robert

[jillybean]

Also holding 'AJ' of spades(the unbid major!) and intending the double to be for takeout suggests that you believe that partner will not expect more than two card support for an 'unbid' major after you make a takeout double.

Not at all, if you read my post I said my partner will be expecting more than 2.

I dont have a suit to bid, double seems best here.

[pclayton]

I assume your double of 3♦ showed them. Pard's 3♥ sets a GF.

We didnt have any agreements on the double, is standard showing ♦ here?

I thought the X was just t/o so 2♦ showed ♦'s, bad as they were.

What a usual defense is: 3♥ is a TO double and double shows ♦'s.

 

A delayed double of 3♥ is penalty.

[jillybean]

Thanks, I didnt know or had forgotten this.

[the hog]

I would pass the 3D opening. Sure, transfer pre empts give you an extra option in that you can X to show a good holding in the bid suit and you can bid their suit for takeout. However my D holding here is not really worth showing. I would want something like

AJ xx AQJxxx xxx or similar to double 3D. This is particularly true as I would expect my partmner to bid 3NT is a flash with a D honour, a real stopper, (not one of Walddk's pseudo stoppers), and another high card.

 

Ask yourself this - what would you do if they opened 3H? You would pass and feel comfortable about it. Kathryn how would you feel if the next hand xx to play? Not very good I suspect. I have been in many situations playing a relay system where an opponent has "tried to be smart" by doubling the relay bid on a similar holding to te one you posted, only to find that the X is sent back. In one case I remember even playing XX at the 2 level in a super moysian, (3-3 fit) and making 2 overtricks with no slam on for our side.

[sdoty]

Not at all, if you read my post I said my partner will be expecting more than 2.

I dont have a suit to bid, double seems best here.

: ( What happened to the poor little green card?

 

This hand should open the bidding given the chance, but just because a hand is worth an opening bid doesn't mean that we're obligated to find a bid if the ops beat us to the punch. There are plenty of opening hands that should keep quiet after a 1-level opening from the ops, let alone a higher level bid.

 

I consider this hand an automatic pass. I'd keep quiet over a 1H opening: double is out of the question with only AJ doubleton of spades and minimum strength, and I don't have a suit worth overcalling (it's my style to require a better suit and/or hand for a 2-level minor suit overcall). The fact that the bidding is at the 3-level makes it even less palatable to get involved.

 

Btw, I'm assuming that the double of 3D was intended as takeout, not as showing diamonds. Even if it shows diamonds I would pass ... the suit and the hand isn't worth coming in.

 

Here's something to consider: if the opening bid had been a natural 3H call, making a takeout double would force partner to bid 3S or higher (assuming he couldn't make a penalty pass, which is unlikely with our hand containing Jxx). RHO being weak doesn't guarantee that partner will have values: the missing points could be in either LHO's or p's hand. To force partner to bid at the 3 or 4-level, we have to have a good reason ... not just a random 13 count. And if our bid is a takeout double, we have to be prepared for any advance from partner.

 

- If we double, partner will go out of his way to bid spades... and he doesn't even have to have a 5 card suit to bid them.

- Partner is likely to insist on game if he holds a good 10 count (and sometimes even less if he has spades), figuring that if our hand is good enough to force him to bid at the 3 or 4-level, his 10 points is enough to get to game.

 

The auction in question was a bit different, since partner isn't -forced- to bid if he trusts that the ops aren't going to pass it out in 3DX. However, the above two points about the spade suit and game still apply: partner may have the option of passing, but that's no guarantee that he won't bid of his own volition.

 

On the actual deal you won't miss out if you pass in direct seat -- partner's hand is worth a bid over 3H.

 

Susan

[helene_t]

Actually, I (I was the one who made 6♣ due to a friendly split) didn't really expect diamonds from Kathryn's double. Against multi 2♦, most play dbl as primarily a balanced hand slightly too weak for a 2NT overcall. Against a 2♣ opening showing diamonds, the cuebid shows both majors while a dbl is a more balanced t/o. I supposed this situation was similar.

 

But I can see the advatage of playing dbl as showing diamonds here: it allows you to show diamonds without bypassing 3NT.

[jillybean]

OK, terrible double, lucky result. Its frustrating having to pass over these preempts, I like to bid and I want to tell my partner I have something.

[blackshoe]

Its frustrating having to pass over these preempts, I like to bid and I want to tell my partner I have something.

 

I like to bid too. But... "when you are fixed, stay fixed" say Anderson and Zenkel in Preempts from A to Z. It's good advice. :P

[Finch]

I assume your double of 3♦ showed them. Pard's 3♥ sets a GF.

We didnt have any agreements on the double, is standard showing ♦ here?

I thought the X was just t/o so 2♦ showed ♦'s, bad as they were.

What a usual defense is: 3♥ is a TO double and double shows ♦'s.

 

A delayed double of 3♥ is penalty.

This is why transfer pre-empts have more success than they ought to, strictly speaking. There isn't a standard defence to them; there are a number of viable defences.

 

This isn't the same as defending against a multi. A multi 2D may have either major, so you don't have a cue bid available. Against a transfer pre-empt you have one major as a cue bid and the other natural.

 

Here is the defence to transfer pre-empts that I play, but I make no pretence that there is any standard. Assuming a 3D opening showing hearts:

 

x = take-out of hearts, x then x again strong take-out of hearts

3H = Michael's, spades and a minor

All suits natural

Pass then double = balanced (strong NT type hand) often passed.

 

Various alternative treatments have any consistent combination of:

 

x = diamonds or x = strong balanced or x = takeout of hearts

3H = Michaels or 3H = take-out of hearts or 3H asks for a heart stop or 3H = void heart light on values take-out

Pass then double = take-out, or pass then double = penalties or pass then double = light take-out, or pass then double = strong balanced

 

Depending on whether you have a 'strong balanced' option available elsewhere, 3NT is either strong balanced or based on a running minor and a stop.

[gwnn]

Just wondering, why would anyone want to bid an equivalent of 3♥ -as opposed to 1♥ or 2♣ or some fancy 2♦- on a strong hand? Only to make the opener "more interesting"? Seems just an awful concept to me.

[helene_t]

Just wondering, why would anyone want to bid an equivalent of 3♥ -as opposed to 1♥ or 2♣ or some fancy 2♦- on a strong hand? Only to make the opener "more interesting"? Seems just an awful concept to me.

Presumably, they put some otherwise unbiddable and/or preempt-sensitive strong hands into the 3♦ opening. Like Missery and Namyats.

[jillybean]

Its frustrating having to pass over these preempts, I like to bid and I want to tell my partner I have something.

 

I like to bid too. But... "when you are fixed, stay fixed" say Anderson and Zenkel in Preempts from A to Z. It's good advice. B)

3 of these books (used) are available on Amazon for between $46.98 & $55.36! + shipping, it looks like it is no longer in publication

Does anyone have an old copy they'd like to lend/sell? :)

[neilkaz]

Preempts from A-Z is a superb book !! Hopefully you can find it used at a decent price if you are patient.

 

Now to speak about this hand and if they were playing pure transfer preempts I don't mind your double, although it still is a bit pushy.

 

However, if they were playing MisIry or similar the opener could have a 2 suited big hand with ♦ as one of the suits and 3Dx may make an overtrick if they decide not to redouble and gamble on whacking you if you run.

 

Vs conventional preempts you have nothing to do but overcall, or make a take out double, or with a stack, wait and hope PD reopens with a double (and heaven help you if you have random junk when he reopens and responder has cards but not enough for 4♥)

 

Vs transfer preempts, you bid 3H as take out, double to show a decent balanced hand denying 4♠'s, and denying the ability/strength to make a 3NT call,..overcall 4♦ like vs conventional preempts, and all sorts of other stuff that can be combined with doubling and bidding, doubling and then doubling again, etc etc, etc. All you need worry about is better 3♦x when you double with the hand you hold.

 

As you can see, I would NEVER play transfer preempts unless playing MisIry as well.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[helene_t]

3 of these books (used) are available on Amazon for between $46.98 & $55.36! + shipping, it looks like it is no longer in publication

Does anyone have an old copy they'd like to lend/sell? B)

Send an email to info at bridgebeter dot nl they might be able to help you. I bought a copy recently and they had some ten copies left. They don't sell English-language book out that fast so I'm pretty sure you will succeed.

[sdoty]

3 of these books (used) are available on Amazon for between $46.98 & $55.36! + shipping, it looks like it is no longer in publication

Does anyone have an old copy they'd like to lend/sell? B)

I'd try checking on half.com or alibris.com -- my guess is that you'll be able to find a used copy pretty cheap. (I love amazon, but it's not the best place to find used books.) Happy hunting!

[pclayton]

Try carlritner.com too.

[blackshoe]

It looks like Baron Barclay has it in stock for $15.95. http://www.baronbarclay.com, or 1-800-274-2221

[Free]

I guess the biggest mistake was from West not to bid 3♥! He gave opponents a free 3-level cuebid, but still the slam was lucky.

 

I have other agreements over 3♦ openings like these so I wouldn't have doubled.

[jillybean]

Preempts from AtoZ was delivered in excellent condition to my mail box today B)

I found the copy I wanted and a good price from www.carlritner.com

 

Thanks for the help