Strange sequence

[pclayton]

Pairs.

 

You pick up in 2nd chair: ♠KTxx, ♥KTxx, ♦8xx, ♣A9. Pass on your right, you pass, LHO opens 1♣ and pard doubles. You cue 2♣ and pard rebids 2N.

 

What do you think pard is showing?

[zasanya]

Opening hand B) ♣ stopper, no 5 carder,probable shape 4-3-3-3,point range 12-14.

[Guest Jlall]

If partner is a sophisticated bidder I'm sure he has a hand that was going to double and then bid NT. In theory on this auction partner should bid up the line 4 card suits, bid 3x with a X and new suit hand type, 2N with a X and NT hand type, and 3C with a very strong directionless hand.

 

In practice, people very often choose to forget about the diamond suit like it doesn't exist and bid their cheapest 4 card major, and also bid 2M with a double and new suit type of hand and then try and make it up later...yuck. A player like that may be doing this with KQx KTx Qxxx KJx I suppose.

[hrothgar]

In my regular partnerships partner should have a NT oriented hand thats too strong for a direct 1NT opening.

 

Holding 12-14 balanced with a club stopper part would overcall in a 4 card major or pass, trusting that I'd balanced.

[mcphee]

I expect 2NT to show a strong hand type GF. What ever he needs I have it and raise to 3NT as one of the games I expect to have a chance to make..

[Walddk]

Natural, too strong for a direct 1NT. If it means anything else, he should have told me before we sat down to play.

 

Roland

[HeartA]

Opening hand :) ♣ stopper, no 5 carder,probable shape 4-3-3-3,point range 12-14.

Holding 12-14 count with 4-3-3-3, I would pass. It shows double-then-1NT hand: 18+ to 20 HCP balanced hand with C stopped.

[Gerben42]

3NT. We are still a bit light for 6.

 

Holding 12-14 count with 4-3-3-3, I would pass

I hope pass 1♣, not 2♣X :)

[pclayton]

I thought it should be forcing too. Hands with club length pass over 1♣, unless they can overcall 1N. I fully expected 18-19, although I ask myself why that hand wouldn't rebid 3N.

 

He actually had: ♠Axx, ♥Qxx, ♦ KJx, ♣QJ8x. With some good play he wrapped up 9 tricks.

 

It wouldn't occur to me to double with his hand, but whatever.

[Finch]

I thought it should be forcing too. Hands with club length pass over 1♣, unless they can overcall 1N. I fully expected 18-19, although I ask myself why that hand wouldn't rebid 3N.

Knowing 2NT is forcing, he can bid 2NT on a balanced 19-count even including a 4-card major. I don't think 3NT really exists as a call.

 

Opposite a non-passed hand, there may be a slam on and describing his hand type will help.

 

Opposite a passed hand, it's common (though not necessarily standard) to play that 1C x P 2C doesn't promise a rebid by the cue-bidder i.e. you can cue on a minimumish 4-4 in the majors and pass the doubler's minimum call. With that agreement, the doubler bids 2NT again to show the hand-type and to ensure you reach game.

[hrothgar]

I thought it should be forcing too. Hands with club length pass over 1♣, unless they can overcall 1N. I fully expected 18-19, although I ask myself why that hand wouldn't rebid 3N.

Its entirely possible that a player might want to investigate alternative strains rather than just blasting to 3N. Those 4-4 fits work well in minors as well as majors.

[Guest Jlall]

He actually had: ♠Axx, ♥Qxx, ♦ KJx, ♣QJ8x. With some good play he wrapped up 9 tricks.

lol@double.

[the hog]

I would expect a strong balanced hand, not a balanced 12-14 pile of crap!

[paulg]

I have no violent objection to the double but would rebid 2♦ (and then 2NT over 2♥).

 

p

[zasanya]

I thought it should be forcing too. Hands with club length pass over 1♣, unless they can overcall 1N. I fully expected 18-19, although I ask myself why that hand wouldn't rebid 3N.

 

He actually had: ♠Axx, ♥Qxx, ♦ KJx, ♣QJ8x. With some good play he wrapped up 9 tricks.

 

It wouldn't occur to me to double with his hand, but whatever.

I am presuming that Players in this case are not regular Partners.

A few questions Phil.Why not bid 2♥ with your hand instead of 2♣?OrDoes 5♥ show 5cards of ♥ in your system??What do you do with 3-3-3-4 shape, 10 points, 4 rags of ♣? or even 3-3-4-3? surely to the less sophisticted P the 2♣ bid DENIES 4 card major instead of showing both?Then is an unsophisticated P to be blamed for biddding 2NT with a flat hand and 12-14?I entirely agree that his hand does not warrent a double but pick up partners are never reliable and in such situations is it not better to KISS? :lol:

The story seems to have had an happy ending any way :D

[kenberg]

I play with pick-up partners quite a bit. Of course things can go wrong. My policy, until I learn otherwise, is to assume that they know standard bidding agreements but not to assume we are playing undiscussed optional agreements (lebensohl, for example). Imo, the cue response to a double to show a good hand is standard bridge, probably going back at least to Goren. Exactly how good could be argued, but good. So 2C is the right response. Doubler then bids 2NT. That shows a big hand. How big could again be argued, but big. To play with a pick-up partner and then assume he is too unsophisticated to handle common bidding situations seems wrong to me. Assume the guy knows what he is doing, or leave the table, but don't choose plays/bids based on the assumption he is clueless. Among other reasons, he may know what he is doing.

 

Of course there will be misunderstandings. Even in high level practiced partnerships.

[whereagles]

If we're talking

 

pass pass 1♣ dbl

pass 2♣ pass 2NT

 

then I why can't it be invitational with, say, 14 or bad 15 hcp?

[hrothgar]

If we're talking

 

pass pass 1♣ dbl

pass 2♣ pass 2NT

 

then I why can't it be invitational with, say, 14 or bad 15 hcp?

As I've noted before, the standards for direct seat doubles vary based on geography. This post assumes that folks are playing fairly standard North American methods.

 

You don't use 2NT to show a balanced 14 count because you don't double with this hand type.

 

♠ KT4

♥ KT2

♦ KT32

♣ KQT

 

This is a very nice NT oriented 14 count. You have a double club stop. Positional stoppers in all the suits. No 4 card major to show at the 2 level. The sort of hand where a natural 2NT might make sense.

 

This is also a hand that would pass RHO's 1♣ opening. I suspect that most of the other hands that you construct that would want to rebid 2NT would also be considered passes.

[whereagles]

Well, I was talking more along the lines of..

 

Kxxx

Kxx

KJxx

Ax

 

or thereabouts. That's about par, give or take some quacks.

[hrothgar]

Well, I was talking more along the lines of..

 

Kxxx

Kxx

KJxx

Ax

 

or thereabouts. That's about par, give or take some quacks.

Why would you ever want to bid 2NT rather than 2♠?

Ax is a miserable stopper and you have a 4 card major.

 

Partner's cue bid establish a game force. It doesn't deny a 4 card major.

[pclayton]

If we're talking

 

pass pass 1♣ dbl

pass 2♣ pass 2NT

 

then I why can't it be invitational with, say, 14 or bad 15 hcp?

As I've noted before, the standards for direct seat doubles vary based on geography. This post assumes that folks are playing fairly standard North American methods.

 

You don't use 2NT to show a balanced 14 count because you don't double with this hand type.

 

♠ KT4

♥ KT2

♦ KT32

♣ KQT

 

This is a very nice NT oriented 14 count. You have a double club stop. Positional stoppers in all the suits. No 4 card major to show at the 2 level. The sort of hand where a natural 2NT might make sense.

 

This is also a hand that would pass RHO's 1♣ opening. I suspect that most of the other hands that you construct that would want to rebid 2NT would also be considered passes.

A hand I considered was: AQx, AQx, xxxx, Kxx. We have high standards for 1N overcalls, and this hand doesn't qualify.

[whereagles]

Why would you ever want to bid 2NT rather than 2♠?

oops, bug. I was thinking of a spade less and a diam or club more.

[cherdano]

Partner's cue bid establish a game force. It doesn't deny a 4 card major.

At least in the US, I think the standard is that the cue forces up to suit agreement. So cue-2H-3H is passable.

I think in Germany, even weaker cues are popular ("I am willing to play either major at the 2-level").

[helene_t]

Partner's cue bid establish a game force. It doesn't deny a 4 card major.

Do you really think so? Over here, people cue with 9+ and 3+ (usually 4+) in both majors. With Whereagles' hand you rebid 2♥, indeed, but partner can pass that.

[Finch]

Partner's cue bid establish a game force.  It doesn't deny a 4 card major.

At least in the US, I think the standard is that the cue forces up to suit agreement. So cue-2H-3H is passable.

I think in Germany, even weaker cues are popular ("I am willing to play either major at the 2-level").

The norm here (England) is that the cue is forcing to suit agreement by a non-passed hand, but the weaker form of the cue is popular by a passed hand.

 

So with

 

KQJx

Kxxx

xx

xxx

 

you probably bid 2S as a non-passed hand (not strong enough to force to the 3-level) but can cue as a passed hand.