brumor Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Why has the "Disallowed" button been turned on in ACBL tournaments? Was possible all not too long ago. Not any more. Or have I been singled out for reasons I have no knowledge of??? [( ) Jack ( )] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Kibitzing is now disallowed in ACBL tournaments because of our concern (for good reason) that several people had been abusing this ability in order to cheat by kibitzing themselves through a second computer. We believe that almost all of our ACBL members, if given the choice between: 1) Being able to kibitz and having to play against lots of cheaters and 2) Not being able to kibitz and having to play against few cheaters would choose option 1. The feedback we have received since we instituted this new policy suggests that we were right about this estimation. I don't want to get involved in a public discussion of the numbers, but please take my word for it that we would not have taken this step unless we thought that cheating by self-kibitzing in our ACBL tournaments was a serious a widespread problem. We enable kibitzing in the last round of every ACBL tournament so that players in these tournaments who are finished playing can watch other tables while they wait for the tournament to end. It is not unlikely that we will allow ACBL regulars with no history of behavioral problems on BBO (and nobody else) to kibitz ACBL tournaments at some point in the not too distant future. You are not being singled out. This new rule applies to everyone and we strongly believe that it in the best interest of the honest people (ie almost everyone) who play in our ACBL games. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 We enable kibitzing in the last round of every ACBL tournament so that players in these tournaments who are finished playing can watch other tables while they wait for the tournament to end. It is not unlikely that we will allow ACBL regulars with no history of behavioral problems on BBO (and nobody else) to kibitz ACBL tournaments at some point in the not too distant future. It has been a welcome change - as tourney players we like being able to kibitz the last round (usually the last board, though sometimes two) once we have a finished and are sitting around waiting for the results. We (speaking for my wife and I) would also like "real" people to be able to kibitz whole tourneys again, and hope you figure out how to determine who's real and who's not. For example, it was sad that none of our friends could see us play in a partscore 4-3 ♦ fit last night, when we had already found our 4-4 ♥ fit and were cold for game. You really want to share the joy of the moment (well, joy of the opponents). However it is painful to be kibitzed by a 'private-private-united nations' and then perhaps wonder about what's happening at the table. If people are willing to be really real then no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 I'm tentatively planning to determine whether a player is real by looking at his profile; if he has an award symbol of (say, 3 or more) I'm planning to assume he is ok to allow in as a spec. Feedback welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 We believe that almost all of our ACBL members, if given the choice between: 1) Being able to kibitz and having to play against lots of cheaters and 2) Not being able to kibitz and having to play against few cheaters would choose option 1. This includes a fairly serious typo. I meant to say "would choose option 2". Most likely this was obvious to anyone who read the rest of my post, but thought I should clarify. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJNeill Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Hi Uday,I can't give an unbiased opinion since I like to kibitz a lot, but this idea sounds good to me. Surely the great majority of the body of cheaters would be weeded out that way. But it would lose the ability to state "kibitzer-free" as an advertising draw, if it is one. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 no kibitzers please. Award symbol "2" requires only 1 BBO MP. 2 tourneys and you get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 So we can bump it up to 4, or 5, whatever we think indicates that this is a player who chooses to spec (the type of person to allow into acbl games) vs a non-player who chooses to spec ( I can't think of any simple rules here) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 I'm tentatively planning to determine whether a player is real by looking at his profile; if he has an award symbol of (say, 3 or more) I'm planning to assume he is ok to allow in as a spec. Feedback welcome just leave it as it is no kibbers, if someone wants to watch they can always go to my hands and look at the cards played, but then again these 12 board matches dont tend to lend themselves to real bridge from a statistical point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Players can receive points in any number of pay tournaments – acbl, bil, $indys,pairs hb, gibs and in all of these tournaments there is an incentive to cheat, $’s, bbo points or mp’s or just simply the win. Im not sure how restricting kibitzers to those players with points will prevent the cheaters, maybe it will just turn the cheaters into kibitzers and their self kibitzers into players. Anyway, I hope Im wrong and you will find a way to allow kibitzers B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 I'm tentatively planning to determine whether a player is real by looking at his profile; if he has an award symbol of (say, 3 or more) I'm planning to assume he is ok to allow in as a spec. Feedback welcome I don't really like that idea, as I'd not be allowed to kibitz under such restrictions I understand that IP spoofing is a problem, but perhaps just eliminating kibs from the same domain as the players participating in the tournament? Here's a weird idea i've just had, but it will need some software changes, rather than policy changes. 1) you are only allowed to kibitz one pesron in the tournament (possibly only other people holding the same hands). 2) in order to kibitz that one person, the person has to accept you as a kibitzer, with a guideline for the players being that unless they know the person asking, don't accept them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brumor Posted December 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Golly Gee Whiz!! Did I really start all this? No matter. Thanks Fred, for the explanation. Have wondered at times wrt the cheating aspect. I can live with whatever comes up. Just hope you do not disallow Kibs in the Main BC. I learn a lot just by watching. [( ) Jack ( )] Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Ben Franklin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Isn't one thread for this topic enough? Please see No more kibitzing at tournaments in the BBO Tournaments Discussion forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccccwwww Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 this should have been done a long time ago. typical cheaters are not acbl members ( a lot from <edited:uday>), they dont pay their fee, they self claim expert or wc. The only reason I can figure is they need good score to impress his fee-paying partner so his parnter might invite them play later on. If people want to kibtz, there is one solution as I told Uday about one year ago, ( at that time he just said it was much easier just ban kibtz). Kibtz can only see the boards played in previous rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 this should have been done a long time ago. typical cheaters are not acbl members ( a lot from <edited:uday>), they dont pay their fee, they self claim expert or wc. The only reason I can figure is they need good score to impress his fee-paying partner so his parnter might invite them play later on. If people want to kibtz, there is one solution as I told Uday about one year ago, ( at that time he just said it was much easier just ban kibtz). Kibtz can only see the boards played in previous rounds. I am not an acbl member; I don't pay acbl fees; I claim advanced. I hope you don't consider me a cheater. Sorry but I consider your comment about acbl members somewhat parochial. BBO consists of players from many nationalities. Why do you have to break things down into acbl terms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 I am not an acbl member; I don't pay acbl fees; I claim advanced. I hope you don't consider me a cheater. Sorry but I consider your comment about acbl members somewhat parochial. BBO consists of players from many nationalities. Why do you have to break things down into acbl terms? agreeI also took exception to the edited out part of the post. edited to edit out the edited out part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 What "eastern europeans comment"? Is that what Uday edited out of ccccwwww's post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccccwwww Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 We are talking about acbl tourney, why are u sensitive about this, I am not acbl member either. if ACBL members cheat and get caught, basically that is end of their bridge life, they must think twice before cheat. If not acbl member, they just need to change a username and continue play online. they dont play for MP, they just need to satisfy their self obsession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trysalot Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Cheating takes various forms in online bridge. What's the difference between people who kibitz themselves from another computer and people who use Instant Messenger or talk on cell phones while playing? What about people in the same household playing as partners from different computers that are side by side? Can you tell me that never happens? Yes I believe that most players are honest, that most people in the same household who play as partners have their computers in separate rooms and don't communicate any way except in the online game, that most people who chat by cell phone with partners while waiting for round change hang up the minute the move to a new table begins, and that most partners who use Instant Messenger turn it off when the game starts. But that word "most" is the reason I would be in favor of barring kibitzers until the last round in ALL tournaments for any kind of masterpoint or money prizes as Fred has done with the ACBL games and before that with the money bridge games and tournaments which don't let kibitzers in at any time. I don't think we should accommodate the bad apples in the basket whose behavior takes away the level playing field. Many of the free tournaments without prizes draw huge entries and very good players. Let the kibitzers indulge themselves in those tournaments, the team games, the main bridge club, and those public and private clubs whose managers want to let kibitzers in. Respectfully submitted, Trysalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trysalot Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 P.S. I just wish there was a way to stop the bad apple players as easily as it is to stop the kibitzers who help them by simply disallowing the kibitzers to enter the tables. Sorry to have gone off topic sort of and opened another can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Fortunately, for me, I have always preferred playing to watching....... B) All tables already have the option to deny kibbitzers so if the tourney wants to as well, np. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A2003 Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 Is there any other game which disallows spectators?Kibitzers should be allowed back to watch if all four players agree to allow them to watch. Just an idea. You want to bring spectators to watch and learn and get into this game. I am sure that many bridge players learned this game by kibitzing the favorite players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Is there any other game which disallows spectators?Kibitzers should be allowed back to watch if all four players agree to allow them to watch. Just an idea. You want to bring spectators to watch and learn and get into this game. I am sure that many bridge players learned this game by kibitzing the favorite players. There are 1000's of tables a day where kibitzers are freely allowed. This includes main room, team game, public and private clubs, and many, many tournaments. Nealry all the fee-based tournaments and all Money Bridge tables however do not allow kibitzers (exceptions are BIL and HB tourneys). This is really a very small slice of the bridge being played on BBO, and to be honest, the best bridge is not played in the tournaments anyway. Try vugraph or look for tables with gold stars or some of the very good team game matches. I simply can not buy the arguement that people have to be able to kibitz ACBL, or skyclub, or bboland to learn how to play or to watch their favorite players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Kibitzing is mostly a poor way spending your time. You will not be a filmmaker by watching John Wayne.You will not be an author reading books.You will not be cyclist watching Tour de France. You will not be bridge player by kibitzing. Sorry to say - there is no other way than hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 You will not be a filmmaker by watching John Wayne. True, but it's still an enjoyable way to pass the time. Sometimes you can't commit to playing, and it's fun to watch others for a little while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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