What I learned today -1000

[jillybean]

Board 3 HomeBase tourney with Frederick

The auction..

 

Me

Pass (1♣) 1nt (X)

Pass (Pass) XX

 

XX does not mean lets smack em partner they are going for a big one here…it means “SOS no 5 card suit, and i think i'll go down if you don't have 5 hcp”

 

Ooops sp

 

jb

[sceptic]

is there a list of times for HB tourneys, I never seem to be able to find one when I fancy a tourney, or is this just becauise of time zones,

[the hog]

There are a number of ways of escaping from 1NT. This includes when you open 1NT and get X or when you overcall 1NT and get X.

 

Kathryn, the xx does not necessarily mean that you don't have a 5 card suit; its meaning depends on what you have agreed with your partner.

For example - you might have the agreement that the pass by your partner demands that you xx. Now your partner can pass if she has values, or bid the lower of 2 non touching suits. An immediate suit bid by your partner for example, could show the lower of touching suits and an immediate xx by your partner could show some 5 card suit and demand that YOU bid 2C wheich she can pass or correct.

 

There are many versions for escaping from 1NT X. One is called Swine, (Sebesfi and Woods 1NT Extraction). It is always fun to say "We are playing Swine", when asked about your structure over 1NT (X)

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

What exactly are the chances that you will hold 5+HCP after p-1C-1NT- X-?

 

If opener has 12HCP, the 1NT bidder has 15 and the doubler has say 9HCP doesn't that account for 36HCPs?

 

SOS redoubles 'without' some partnership agreement are a very good way to go 'minus 1000' rather than just giving up a much smaller penalty.

 

Is your partner so sure that playing in some 4-3(4-2?) fit 'doubled' is going to be that much better?

 

Do they think that you should not bid 2S with a 4=3=3=3 hand after that XX?

Do they think that you should bid a 3 card suit holding 4=3=3=3 and accept the double that follows? Do they think that you could play a 3-3(or 3-2?) trump fit better than a 1NT doubled contract?

 

Even if you do find a 4-4 fit, you now still have to make one more trick than the seven tricks that you had to make in 1NT. Defending 1NT is normally more difficult than defending 2(3?) of a suit.

 

Overcalling 1NT is a very dangerous bid. The other side only has to count up their HCP to estimate whether a double is normally good for their side. If they do double, chances are that you are going down.

 

I do play conventional 'escapes' from 1NT, however, I have already discussed that bidding 'prior' to our side being doubled.

 

I sometimes just take my lumps as being the best solution to a bad situation.

 

If I were playing assign the blame here, I would 'ask' why your partner would suggest that you might hold 5+HCPs in this auction.

 

Regards,

Robert

[jillybean]

Im not playing assign the blame, we did not have an agreement, I find doubles are confusing, redoubles more so. I posted this for my own benefit and perhaps there is someone else who may not know what a double/redouble is or could be here :)

[paulg]

Like a number of people, I play that redouble by the 1NT bidder shows a 5-card (or longer) suit, typically a minor, and expresses doubt about the contract.

 

Paul

[Finch]

Im not playing assign the blame, we did not have an agreement, I find doubles are confusing, redoubles more so. I posted this for my own benefit and perhaps there is someone else who may not know what a double/redouble is or could be here B)

Unless you have specifically agreed otherwise:

 

1. Redouble by 4th hand (1C 1NT x xx) is for blood.

2. Redouble by the 1NT overcaller is not really a possible 'standard' call.

 

Lots of people play some sort of conventional escape by 4th hand, where xx would be artificial. Others, including my partnerships, don't.

 

As cardsharp says a common agreement is that redouble by the 1NT overcaller means 'I would like to run to my 5/6-card suit but I'm redoubling in case you have some values and would like to play there'. But that's an agreement, not a standard.

 

The agreement your partner suggested "I don't want to play 1NTx but I have nowhere to run" is also an agreement, not a standard. It strikes me as a dangerous agreement to have as it is gambling on finding a 4-4 fit.

[kenberg]

As near as I can recall, I have made such a redouble exactly once in my life. Partner passed and as she put down the dummy asked what on Earth I was thinking of with that redouble. As luck would have it I brought in seven tricks and won the event (else I probably would not still be among the living) but I though it over later and decided that she had a point. It's unlikely that the NT overcaller can be confident of seven tricks in his own hand, the auction suggests partner has at most zero points, and there is no good reason to think that there is a fit or that you can find one if there is one. I don't know what XX means to most people in that auction but I have come to believe it to be a mistake regardless of its meaning.

[Al_U_Card]

Interesting, the way I learned "standard" was that after 1NT was doubled, that the rebid by opener showed a 5 card suit and that rdbl promised 2 four card suits and asked partner to pass with enough to make 1NT (unlikely) or to start bidding his 4 card suits up the line.

[keylime]

Beaner,

 

Let me share with you my -1500 I had a while back.

 

Pard opens 1NT. You bid 2H, xfer into spades, and after pard dutifully bids, you now have a rebid problem. Your hand is roughly:

 

AQJxxx

AQ

Axxx

x

 

Since pard's 1NT was 14-16 you're in the slam zone but don't want to barge into it if DOP has 5 clubs. So you rebid 3D, thinking you've set trumps.

 

Well you finally get to make your slam try and in a kc auction pard bids 5♦, doubled by RHO. You proudly redouble, showing your ace...and your pard PASSES you in your cuebid. Oops.

 

Pard by the way had:

 

Kxx

Kxxx

xx

AKxx

 

So, pard took a small liberty, and I got racked for down 3.

 

I empathize totally with you. Wear this like a badge of honor. :D

[neilkaz]

Keylime, I empathize with you also, as today playing rather simple stuff with a regular PD, the wheels came off so badly that we'd have scraped thru the floor of a tank.

 

Anyhow, I think I'd just transfer to ♠ and bid RKC with your hand even playing 14-16 but it is a close call. That is not the purpose of my post, but the purpose of my post is that when your hear bids you may not understand and are considering passing out what may be a disaster, think twice and then think again !

 

In Keylime's case, standard bidding would be that 3♦ doesn't set ♠ as trump since responder may have only 5 of them. 3♦ shows a 2nd suit, which you have and may be leading to a slam invite with a bit of encouragement from PD. At other times it may avoid being set in 3NT when a suit is wide open but 4♠ makes on a 5-2 split or 5♦ makes. Anyhow, I suspect PD didn't respond with the obvious ♠ bid to set trumps.

 

In spite of that, PD's pass of 5Dxx is simply awful as can he really think that you have 6 ♦'s ?? PD should have been alert to the fact that the hand belongs in ♠ since you hav eat least 8 of them.

 

OK, jilly...can you really think that PD who has no clue whether you hold zero or a few HCP wants to play 1NTxx ?

 

More later.. neilkaz ..

[kenberg]

Interesting, the way I learned "standard" was that after 1NT was doubled, that the rebid by opener showed a 5 card suit and that rdbl promised 2 four card suits and asked partner to pass with enough to make 1NT (unlikely) or to start bidding his 4 card suits up the line.

Perhaps this is either standard or the logical meaning (or both), but if you are 3-2-4-4 and your partner is 3-4-3-3 it may not work so well. I have made a lot of 1NT doubleds in my life and, by and large, I think it best to just sit still. Nothing works always, of course, but sitting still has a lot to be said for it.

[keylime]

Neil,

 

This accident happened with a very regular partner! :D

 

K another accident, this time as the receiver of it.

 

Victoria regional, Bracket 4: You pard opens 2D, a strong opening (balanced, 4441, or G/F with diamonds as one or one of two suits). It's alerted, and RHO overcalls RED on white 2H, and you're only sitting on this hand:

 

KQ

AJ9xx

xxx

xxx

 

Of course you double. Pard was nice enough to provide the Q-x of hearts for you as you set them down seven doubled (pard had the balanced hand type).

 

After the board finished, RHO asks me..."What was 2D?" :D I showed her the CC and she realized the gross error she had made.

[neilkaz]

Neil,

 

This accident happened with a very regular partner!  :D

 

K another accident, this time as the receiver of it.

 

Victoria regional, Bracket 4: You pard opens 2D, a strong opening (balanced, 4441, or G/F with diamonds as one or one of two suits). It's alerted, and RHO overcalls RED on white 2H, and you're only sitting on this hand:

 

KQ

AJ9xx

xxx

xxx

 

Of course you double. Pard was nice enough to provide the Q-x of hearts for you as you set them down seven doubled (pard had the balanced hand type).

 

After the board finished, RHO asks me..."What was 2D?"  :huh:  I showed her the CC and she realized the gross error she had made.

I am working on a 2♣/2♦ sys and it is close to yours except that 2♣ shows either a 1 suiter or some ranges of strong balanced monsters and 2♦ guarantees either a 3 suiter or 2 suiter or other ranges of balanced monsters.

 

The system allows weaker 2♣ openings with hands that might get passed out at the 1 level but make game with a bit of help, since the completely broke responder can pass the rebid after 2♣ when 2♦ shows a near bust.

 

I'd like to hear more of your 2♣/2♦ sys since I was tought something similar but lost the notes many years ago.

 

I'll leave you with the following sequence. (opps pass all the way) 1♥-1♠-3♣ (normal GF) -3♠-4♦ (Q-bid)..pass by PD !!! After I question her she says she passed since she preferred ♦ to ♥ having 4 of them and having shown her 6 card ♠ suit. Off course 6 of either major is cold and 6NT can be made with a good guess. She listed herself as advanced and had as much modernish 2/1 stuff listed in profile as do I.

 

Please don't pass when the final contract cannot be best !!

[neilkaz]

So my point here is to ask a simple question and that question is..

 

"Can the 1NT overcaller hold a hand here that wants to play 1NTxx ?"

 

The answer to that question is a resounding "No" since he has no real idea if you have 0 HCP or a few, and all he has is a flatish 15-18 HCP. If you have several HCP you can pass and hope to make a very nice score for 1NTxx unless an opp chickens out and runs to 2 of a suit. But if you have almost nothing, 1NTxx is going down and often down 2 and on a real bad day down 3.

 

Thus holding almost nothing, you have to pull to your lowest 4 card suit (am assuming you'd have run last turn with a 5 card suit, either directly or via transfer)

and hope that if PD doesn't fit it and bits a higher suit that you also have 4 cards in that one and/or that when you get doubled you suffer less of a penalty than in 1NTxx.

 

Does this mean that the 1NT overcaller's xx is a good idea ? Certainly not in my opinion unless you are playing some conventional escape where advancer's pass forces a redouble.

 

Normally it is up to advancer to initiate any escape sequences since the 1NT overcaller's hand is rather well known in terms of distribution and strength. If advancer has a few HCP, he can just pass and hope 1NTx makes for a fine score.

If he has 4333 garbage he can also pass and hope 1NTx goes down less than what may happen at the 2 level when only a 43 fit is found, or pass and hope opener is unbalanced and bids (noting opener cannot tell whether you are passing to play, or passing and praying when he has a unbalanced minimal opening)

 

So my point is..if you were broke in this auction, it has to be clear to you that 1NTxx is going to be a debacle, so keep your best poker face :D on and confidently bid 2 of a suit :huh:

 

.. neilkaz ..