where to send complain ACBL tourney ruling?

[blackshoe]

If you have misconceptions about the spirit of these games you are kindly directed to seek playing opportunities elsewhere.

I don't think what you say here is what you actually intended to say. The tenor of the rest of your message indicates a willingness to teach people how to become good ethical players. This says "if you don't understand the spirit of our games, we aren't going to try to help you. Just go away." :)

[Gweny]

Yes we DO want to educate people.

 

The other statement is intended for a entire different sort of participant.

 

I am refering to people who already know how to play but do not uphold these same thoughts about just having 12 boards of interesting and fun play. Instead they want to give lessons, act arrogant to just about everyone and steal the joy from both partner(s) and opps. Those are the ones that statement was is intended for.

[csdenmark]

Yes we DO want to educate people.

 

The other statement is intended for a entire different sort of participant.

 

I am refering to people who already know how to play but do not uphold these same thoughts about just having 12 boards of interesting and fun play. Instead they want to give lessons, act arrogant to just about everyone and steal the joy from both partner(s) and opps. Those are the ones that statement was is intended for.

Well done Gwen.

 

I really support your hard work trying to push the participants into a position where they need to prove they are cooperative. We really need some who take a firm position and try to pursue their objectives. All ought to support you in this hard struggle to the benefit of all.

[blackshoe]

The other statement is intended for a entire different sort of participant.

 

I figured as much, but your post wasn't clear. B)

 

I am refering to people who already know how to play but do not uphold these same thoughts about just having 12 boards of interesting and fun play. Instead they want to give lessons, act arrogant to just about everyone and steal the joy from both partner(s) and opps. Those are the ones that statement was is intended for.

 

Perhaps "If you do not wish to play in such a way as to ensure that no one's enjoyment of the game is lessened by your attitude or comments, please find another game." ;)

 

BTW, I do appreciate your efforts Keep on with 'em! :D

[mike777]

Just tried fast pairs for the first time tonight. Nice fast game with what seemed no more silly errors by me than in a slower game..... ;) Hope to see more of them.

[rona_]

We always appreciate your help in improving our skills and bringing to our attention any potential flawed rulings so the team can discuss and learn from the event. If you have any concerns about a td please feel free to write to ACBL@bridgebase.com or contact me personally at Gweny@bridgebase.com.

 

I think this is the crux of the problem. Let's assume that you were the TD who made the adjustment in the hand mentioned in this thread, what benefit would it be to anyone to email ACBL@bridgebase, or gweny@ bridgebase, or discuss the issue with ACBL_4 who might have been the TD and is also you, since you are one and the same? In my view it is a legitimate conflict of interest issue.

 

Rona

[mycroft]

You are right, rona, that is the crux of the problem.

 

If you rant about how unfair the ruling is to ACBL_# or ***@bridgebase.com, they're likely going to ignore you. Frankly, that's what anybody is going to do - you'd probably do it too, if someone came up to you in your job and just went off about how you're rooking them.

 

If you explain that you believe this ruling was wrong, because of X and Y, or it violated Law N, or "'Protect-the-field' isn't in the law-book, why was this adjusted?" or any other reasoned argument (it doesn't even have to be based in legality, a quick "could you please show me the Law you used for the ruling?" would probably work) - and feel free to ask others, including TDs, before writing up the request (don't rant to them, either, though) - they'll think about it, discuss it with others, maybe even learn something.

 

How do I know that? Because that's what I do. That's what my colleagues do. That's what any respectable director does - unless we think we know everything, or don't care about getting things right, or don't want to learn. And if you are assuming that, then, yeah, that is the crux of the problem, whether you're right or wrong.

 

As far as conflict of interest is concerned, BBO ACBL is an ACBL club like any other, and in 90% of them, the TD is the owner and the operator (of at least some of the games). Sure, you can talk to the ACBL about it, but all they can do is yank the sanction, and they have a very "hands off" attitude to their relevant clubs - you'll pretty much have to prove major malfeasance to do that. It doesn't matter if the club is bricks-and-mortar or online. At least online you get your choice of TDs, and a $1 game.

 

Michael.

[glen]

I think this is the crux of the problem. Let's assume that you  were the TD who made the adjustment in the hand mentioned in this thread, what benefit would it be to anyone to email ACBL@bridgebase, or gweny@ bridgebase, or discuss the issue with ACBL_4 who might have been the TD and is also you, since you are one and the same? In my view it is a legitimate conflict of interest issue.

I don't believe this is the crux of the problem, but instead is the crux of the solution to the problem. Even if the TD is the same, the benefit of discussing the issue is to move towards a common understanding, or, at least see each others viewpoints. Once the walls come down, this often goes a long way to eliminating bitter feelings that sometimes arise.

 

For those who get the ACBL bulletin, the December 06 issue has a Zero Tolerance type case presented in The Hat Lady - Bridge Manners & Etiquette column (which I find is very well written) - too short summary: Swiss match, LHO storms out, TD plays hands, LHO returns, claims in contract, trump still out, claims revoke happened, replay shows no revoke, storms out again, TD plays next hand, LHO returns to accuse others of "many transgressions", TD later says LHO has problems and player should leave it alone.

 

Quoting from the article:

Since this was a club game, and the director is reliant on your good will and continued patronage for his living, tell him in no uncertain terms that you will never come back if he drops the ball on you again.  Smart business people know dissatisfied customers complain to six people, while happy campers brag only to two.  Do not go in fear, begging to be protected.  Instead go in there like a friend.

 

In short the Hat Lady (Marie Sander) recommends first talking with the TD, in a friendly manner. This seems the right first move, instead of writing directly to the ACBL in Memphis (though give the ACBL credit for publishing this column). Now if talking to the TD makes no progress, or discussion degenerates, then one would try to reach club ownership (if not the TD), or others.

 

In ACBL BBO tourneys, the TD is often unable to have a substantial discussion on a problem, and often leaves once the tourney is completed. Thus I believe the right approach when faced with a serious problem that occured in a tourney is to open a discussion with the TD's proxy, acbl@bridgebase.com. One exception to this would be if there is already a policy in place (or defacto policy) for the particular problem, and thus the issue would be better in open widespread discussion, such as in this forum, to determine what the best policy should be.

[pigpenz]

Thus I believe the right approach when faced with a serious problem that occured in a tourney is to open a discussion with the TD's proxy, acbl@bridgebase.com. One exception to this would be if there is already a policy in place (or defacto policy) for the particular problem, and thus the issue would be better in open widespread discussion, such as in this forum, to determine what the best policy should be.

Maybe it migt be in the intest of ACBL BBO to open up their own forums for members who play in the ACBL BBO games. I dont mean here on these forums but a seperate forum just like Homebase Club has their own forum. And it would be great for the ACBL BBO to publicize the forum if they ever start it. Probably about 50% of the responders to posts about acbl bbo games are by regular forum members who never play in acbl bbo games.

[mike777]

Great idea! Gwen?

[hrothgar]

I'd like to echo the suggestion that the ACBL create some kind of public forum where people can discuss Director's rulings. These types of discussion forums provide one of the best resources imaginable that players and director's can use to educate themselves about the Laws and proprieties that govern the game. There is no substitue for being able to review or even participate in an organized discussion disecting different rulings.

 

Most of the real bridge organizations have an open review process for Appeals Committee rulings. For example, all of the EBU reviews are available at

 

http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/appeals.htm

 

Adam Wildavsky maintains a directory of ACBL appeals committee reports from ACBL Nationals at http://www.tameware.com/adam/bridge/laws/

 

There are similar archives available for WBF events, and the like.

 

Open commentary about the appeals process is an expected part of this game. I have no illusions that the quality of the discussions that we'd get in an Open Forum would rival what we see in these discussions. In general, the TDs and Appeals Committees for major events are first rate. My main concern is the ability to have open debate about these types of issues.

 

I've seen a number of comments in the past suggesting that some of the BBO Directors are uncomfortable seeing people pick apart their rulings. I'm sorry, but I don't have very much sympathy for this attitude... Anyone who deliberately puts themselves in a position where they are getting paid to judge others shouldn't be able to claim that they have qualms about letting third parties comment about their actions.

[keylime]

Per my blog, I'm going to give the ACBL games a test drive again. I have heard enough positive indicators from members to give it a fair shot. I'm free at the 9, 10:15 and 2am games currently. Any bites?

[Gweny]

:huh:

Maybe it migt be in the intest of ACBL BBO to open up their own forums for members who play in the ACBL BBO games. I dont mean here on these forums but a seperate forum just like Homebase Club has their own forum. And it would be great for the ACBL BBO to publicize the forum if they ever start it. Probably about 50% of the responders to posts about acbl bbo games are by regular forum members who never play in acbl bbo games.

 

Dear pigpenz you have nailed it!

 

This particular forum started out as a forum for people WHO DIRECT tournaments in BBO. It did not take long before the harsh and non constructive comments of some chased 99% of the people that could have benefited greatly from having a forum to discuss rulings, procedures and software to improve td-ing in BBO.

 

I greatly admire Jilly for sticking with it in here - most of us stopped because of the amount of non constructive yap yap we would get from the non td-ing experts if we were foolish enough to show our "ignorance" in this forum.

 

I suspect you are right about an ACBL forum and until we can figure out a way to make it a forum for the people who DO play there then acbl@bridgebase.com, or gweny@bridgebase.com will have to do for now.

 

As for one of the previous posters that suggested that mailing things to acbl@bbo was just "wrong" if I was the td about whom the player was complaining since I would be the one reading the email - this is also just "wrong" on several levels. First it makes a false assumption that I am the only one reading the mail. Second it makes another serious error in assuming that I would rather round file something than look for a way to improve my ACBL directing skills.

 

I have no illusions about directing ACBL games in BBO. I am pretty sure that most club tds do not look out over their tournaments and see people who are peers of Fred sitting in their games on a daily basis. When I see such players in tournaments I am directing I take a deep breath and immediately scan the lobby to see who is available to consult if I have to make a ruling involving people who CAN and DO play and win in national and international events. Thank you very much to my mentors who come to my aid on a sticky hand or ruling question.

 

Perhaps there are arrogant demigods that assume they have the solution to every single ruling that will come up in the course of an ACBL tournament but it is not me nor any other td on the ACBL team. Since I/we know I/we am not perfect, and have not one spec of ego involved in defending a ruling I/we am happy to get feedback if I/we screw up - that is how you learn new things and improve your skills.

 

Moreover, we take our jobs very seriously. We owe it to Fred, our customers, and friends that play in the games we direct to do the best we can. We do not like seeing bad rulings but we all know they can and will happen. We want to learn from the experience and hopefully not repeat a transgression.

[helene_t]

Maybe there would be a niche for more serious online tourneys, whether ACBL or otherwise, with TDs with higher qualifications as well as ACs. FWIW, I think it's more likely to grow out of HomeBase Club than comming from ACBL.

 

But it's not going to happen overnight. While the BBO TD interface is getting better and better, in some respects it's still a far cry of F2F communication. This is largely inherent to computer interfaces. Some day we'll all be wearing virtual reality suits while playing on BBO, transmitting 5-sense signals (maybe 6-sense including direct brain stimulation), combining the best from computer interaction with the best from F2F interaction.

 

The lack of non-verbal clues from the players as well as language barriers makes the TD's work difficult.

 

TDs with higher qualifications would make the entry fees much higher.

 

ACs would face severe obstackles. Players log out before the AC can contact them to ask questions. Recruiting AC members that are available in real time and organizing the communication between them would not be trivial. It will not be sound business for BBO develop software for facilating AC meetings, Even if all the practical problems are solved, I don't see any reason to expect the ACs decisions to be (much) better than those of the TDs.

[hotShot]

Even if all the practical problems are solved, I don't see any reason to expect the ACs decisions to be (much) better than those of the TDs.

There are 2 main reasons that make AC's decisions better than TD decisions.

 

1) They have much more time to make a decision!

 

2) 3 people are less likely to overlook something important.