2/1 question

[jvage]

With some partners I have recently changed from the traditional style around here (SAYC'ish) to 2/1. I wondered what is the normal way to solve this kind of problems in 2/1. I had:

A8

K97632

QJ

975

 

Without interference the bidding started:

1♠ - 1NT (not 100% forcing)

2♦ - ?

 

What would you bid if the small spade was a small diamond?

 

John

[Adebisi]

Hi, one of the weakest spot in 2/1 is 1S-2H FG. 2C/D FG ok, but if u cant bid 2H after 1S with that hand i guess its not a winning bridge, and that just makes more difficult to describe your hand. Here , coz 1S-1NT-2D-2H is played as weak 6+H, jump to 3H after 2D seems only option.Cheers!

[Adebisi]

:)

[helene_t]

3♥ seems normal. This shows an invitational hand with hearts, which is what you have.

 

If you play an immediate 3♥ as invitational without spade tollerance, there's an inference that you have a doubleton spades.

[jvage]

I was asking because I didn't know the correct answer. At the table I didn't like 3♥ for 2 reasons:

1. The heartsuit is very bad when partner is not known to have any fit. What is partner expected to do with a normal hand without a fit (say Kxxxx, x, Axxx, Axx, even with KQJTx, x, AKxx, Qxx you would like to stop lower)?

2. We have a bid for an invitational hand with hearts (in our system a direct 2♥ followed by rebidding the suit is the only exception to 2/1 GF), while 3♥ directly would be artificial. The meaning of a jump to 3♥ here is undiscussed. Since you have no convenient way to show a maximum 1NT with diamondsupport, wouldn't it be very nice to use this as a strong diamondraise (splinter?) with something like Kx, x, AKxxxx, xxxx?

 

John

[Free]

I would just bid 2♥, if partner is maximum with fit he'll bid again most of the time...

[whereagles]

Judgement call, and a rather difficult one.

 

With such good fillers for pard's suit, I consider this an invitational hand, so sign-offs like 2♥ or 2♠ are out. That leaves 3♥ and 2NT as options. I dislike 3♥ on that suit, so I'll just bid 2NT and leave it to pard to bid his fragment if he feels it's right.

[ArcLight]

Playing 2/1 Mike Lawrence style, no Bergen Raises

 

After pards 1♠ you don't know if your diamonds are worth anything.

A 3♥ invitational jump shift shows 9-11 HCP. You have 10, but are the QJ really worth anything?

Also, the hearts are poor.

 

1♠- 1NT

2♦ - 3♥

 

This shows a weaker hand than 1♠ - 3♥

 

 

The 2♦ bid helps your hand (though its likely just 4 cards), but the ♥ suit is still poor

 

 

Making a 2/1 with a bid like this will damage partnership harmony. It may "work out" but pard will no longer trust your 2/1 bids.

[hrothgar]

I think that this is a fairly clear 2♥ rebid.

 

Yes, you have a 10 count. Yes you have nice fillers for partner's Diamonds. However, the main feature of your hand is the heart suit, and your heart suit is very weak. All six card suits are not created equal, and this one lacks texture.

 

If partner tables a stiff heart - which is damn likely on this auction - you don't want to be playing at the three level. Even if partner has a stiff Queen or stiff Ace, a heart game is looking pretty ugly.

 

I'd bid a simple 2♥, natural and non-forcing. If partner has a nice 5=3=4=1 hand, he'll find something to say.

[whereagles]

Richard, if you had instead

 

Ax

Kxxx

QJ

xxxxx

 

wouldn't you be tempted into bidding an inv 2NT?

[hrothgar]

Richard, if you had instead

 

Ax

Kxxx

QJ

xxxxx

 

wouldn't you be tempted into bidding an inv 2NT?

The hand that you posit is a clear cut 2♠ rebid.

 

You have fillers for partner's Diamond suit.

Your remaining points are an Ace and a King, suggesting a suit contract.

You have club length, but no real stopper.

 

If I weren't playing a forcing NT, I would have responded 1N, Natural and non-forcing.

The QJ tight in Diamonds hasn't re-evaluated enough for me to suppress my Spade support and upgrade this to an 11 count.

[pclayton]

2♥ and 3♥ are both available to show heart hands in normal 2/1.

 

I've switched to intermediate jump shifts, and this hand can be shown via an immediate 3♥ call. Not playing these, I'd rebid 3♥ over 2♦. I hate the suit, but my ♦/♠ honors are really nice. Opposite a mundane: KJxxx, Qx, Axxx, Ax, or KQxxx, x, ATxx, AQx, I want to be in game at IMPs.

 

At MPs, I'd make the slight underbid of 2♥.

[whereagles]

The hand that you posit is a clear cut 2♠ rebid.

 

(...)

 

The QJ tight in Diamonds has re-evaluated enough for me to suppress my Spade support and unpgrade this to an 11 count.

I don't understand it. Do you invite or not? :)

[hrothgar]

The hand that you posit is a clear cut 2♠ rebid.

 

(...)

 

The QJ tight in Diamonds has re-evaluated enough for me to suppress my Spade support and unpgrade this to an 11 count.

I don't understand it. Do you invite or not? :)

Soory, that was completely garbled...

 

I bid a simple 2♥. I'm not inviting.

[HeartA]

3H over pd's 2D is contradicted with 1NT response, imo. After pd's shows 2 suits (of minimum or close to minimum strength), you try to force pd to bid 3S/3N/4D or play 6-1 hearts at 3 level, my hand is not any better. I would just bid 2♥.

[pclayton]

3H over pd's 2D is contradicted with 1NT response, imo. After pd's shows 2 suits (of minimum or close to minimum strength), you try to force pd to bid 3S/3N/4D or play 6-1 hearts at 3 level, my hand is not any better. I would just bid 2♥.

Disagree.

 

2♦ can be rebid with anything from a absolute minimum 20 opener; KQJxx, x, Axxxx, xx to a 17 count with a 5-4 that can't jump shift. Unless you play Gazilli, 2♦ has a very wide range, and should not be characterized as a minimum or close to minimum.

 

I realize with upper strength hands that pard will take another call, but if you play 2/1 without IJS, you need to split the range of the single suited hands. Otherwise, 2♥ can show a 4 count or a bad 12 count.

 

The crux of the discussion for me is whether or not this hand should be upgraded, and I contend that it should be.

[inquiry]

I play a varient of Gazilli, so the 2♦ rebid is very limited. Partner will never be strong after this 2♦ bid and will be unbalanced (as my 1NT is only semi-forcing). So I will bid 2♥. Should partner be some 5-3-5-0 or 5-3-4-1 he may raise me anyway. I have to even admit, forgetting about hearts and rebidding a non-forcing and weak 2♠ appeals to me. I just hope i bid 2♥ in tempo so partner with good spades and a heart void can find a 2♠ rebid on his own. Somehow, I will probably tank too long and bar him!

[neilkaz]

Very tough decision here as to whether to rebid 2 or 3♥. (I don't really care for 2NT with what may be wide open ♣ and PD having at least 9 cards in the pointed suits.)

 

Anyhow...I don't play direct IJS, so I have to decide if this is worth a jump invite to 3♥ and I think it is just good enough. I fear my weak 6 card suit, but have 10 HCP and I think 7 of those HCP may be quite useful to PD.

 

PD can carry on to 4♥ if he has a couple cards in support and more than a min or try 3NT if he stops clubs and has more than a min.

 

I must mention that the more I read and study Gazzilli, the more I like about it. Playing Gazzilli means that opener's 2♦ rebid is limited so then I'd just bid 2♥ as game is unlikely unless he has a max for 2♦ and 3 card support, which will likely get a raise to 3♥ and I can carry on to game.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[pclayton]

FWIW, I wouldn't respnd 3♥ to 1♠, playing IJS because the ♦QJ are of very questionable value. Once pard bids 2♦ these are very valuable cards.

[Winstonm]

FWIW, I wouldn't respnd 3♥ to 1♠, playing IJS because the ♦QJ are of very questionable value. Once pard bids 2♦ these are very valuable cards.

I don't believe you can assign that much strength to the QJ of diamonds as the 2D bid is only semi-natural playing 2/1. The 2D bid implies that the QJ of diamonds may be worth more but there is not an assurance as partner would be forced to bid 2D with KQxxx, xxx, xxx, AK - KQxxx, Axx, xxx, Kx or the like.

 

The other problem is that if the QJ of diamonds are of value then the heart K may be worthless when pard holds KQxxx, x, AKxx, xxx.

 

In my judgement this hand is simply a 2H rebid, which should be slightly constructive - with a very weak hand you would either pass or correct to 2S so when you do bid 2H you should have either a weakish hand with long enough hearts to be O.K. if partner raises to 3 or a semi-constructive hand with as few as 5 hearts.

[Gerben42]

2♥ with the actual hand, with ♦QJx I bid 3♥.

 

By the way this is not greatly different from SAYC on the actual hand, except that in SAYC you might be playing 1NT on a 6 - 3 ♥ fit. On the actual hand I am very happy that I am playing 2/1 instead.

[awm]

Well, playing SAYC I could start with 2♥ and plan to rebid 2NT if partner temporizes with 2♠ (which should be the rebid on any minimum opener). Of course this could be too high, but it seems like playing 2/1 you have three options:

 

(1) Underbid your hand by rebidding 2♥.

(2) Unilaterally decide that you are playing in hearts opposite a minimum by rebidding 3♥.

(3) Suppress the hearts completely by rebidding 2♠ or 2NT.

 

Playing SAYC you can show the values and at least five of the six hearts, and still end the auction in 2NT if partner has some minimum without a great fit. This gets you to a somewhat better spot opposite the dreaded 5143 minimums. And you can also potentially play 3♦ or 3♠ if partner has some minimum with 5-5 or more in the pointy suits.

 

Obviously there are hands where it's better to be playing 2/1, most notably a weaker hand with better hearts, where you can guarantee to get to 2♥ and partner might pass 1NT in SAYC. But I don't think this is such a hand.

[Winstonm]

(1) Underbid your hand by rebidding 2♥.

(2) Unilaterally decide that you are playing in hearts opposite a minimum by rebidding 3♥.

(3) Suppress the hearts completely by rebidding 2♠ or 2NT.

 

I will respectfully disagree with the above. Bidding 2H in no way underbids the hand as the range of the 1N bid is quite wide, usually 6-12 or thereabouts.

 

IMO, the one thing you do when playing 2/1 is to sacrifice accuracy at the 2-level in order to bid more games. When the auction starts 1S-1N-2C/2D there is no guarantee of more than a 3-card holding in the bid suit so you immediately start with innaccuracy. To try to stop in exactly 2H after this start is fighting the system that is designed for constructive approaches rather than weak approaches.

 

It therefore makes most sense to use the 2H bid by responder as a semi-constructive move - a hand that either has long hearts with no tolerance for spades or a hand with 5 or more hearts in the invitational range - in other words a 1-round force if partner has better than minimum - if partner is on a minimum he may pass. The worst that happens is you play 2H on a 5/2 fit with 22/23 combined or play 3H with a least a 6/2 or 7/2 fit in one precise auction: 1S-1N-2C/D-2H-2N-3H. The disadvantage of this method is you cannot bid 2H on x, KJxxx, xx, Qxxxx after 1S-1N-2D-??? (help)

 

As with all bidding, it is a tradeoff - the one thing that cannot be done is try to use 2H for a weak stop hand or a goodish hand.

 

IMO, playing 2/1 the flexible bids should be the lowest bids - jumps should have very precise meanings. In this sequence, 1S-1N-2C/2D-3H can be assigned its own meaning dependent on how you chose to use 1S-3H - if 1S-3H is the strongly invitational hand with 6 good hearts then I would use 1S-1N-2C/D-3H as specifically solid 6-card hearts and nothing outside - more of an invite to 3N than 4H.

[pclayton]

FWIW, I wouldn't respnd 3♥ to 1♠, playing IJS because the ♦QJ are of very questionable value. Once pard bids 2♦ these are very valuable cards.

I don't believe you can assign that much strength to the QJ of diamonds as the 2D bid is only semi-natural playing 2/1. The 2D bid implies that the QJ of diamonds may be worth more but there is not an assurance as partner would be forced to bid 2D with KQxxx, xxx, xxx, AK - KQxxx, Axx, xxx, Kx or the like.

 

The other problem is that if the QJ of diamonds are of value then the heart K may be worthless when pard holds KQxxx, x, AKxx, xxx.

 

In my judgement this hand is simply a 2H rebid, which should be slightly constructive - with a very weak hand you would either pass or correct to 2S so when you do bid 2H you should have either a weakish hand with long enough hearts to be O.K. if partner raises to 3 or a semi-constructive hand with as few as 5 hearts.

I think many, if not most, rebid 2♣ on any 5332. Assuing pard has 4+ ♦'s, the QJ are pulling full weight. I agree that the ♥K may be hitting shortness, and perhaps can be discounted.

[Winstonm]

FWIW, I wouldn't respnd 3♥ to 1♠, playing IJS because the ♦QJ are of very questionable value. Once pard bids 2♦ these are very valuable cards.

I don't believe you can assign that much strength to the QJ of diamonds as the 2D bid is only semi-natural playing 2/1. The 2D bid implies that the QJ of diamonds may be worth more but there is not an assurance as partner would be forced to bid 2D with KQxxx, xxx, xxx, AK - KQxxx, Axx, xxx, Kx or the like.

 

The other problem is that if the QJ of diamonds are of value then the heart K may be worthless when pard holds KQxxx, x, AKxx, xxx.

 

In my judgement this hand is simply a 2H rebid, which should be slightly constructive - with a very weak hand you would either pass or correct to 2S so when you do bid 2H you should have either a weakish hand with long enough hearts to be O.K. if partner raises to 3 or a semi-constructive hand with as few as 5 hearts.

I think many, if not most, rebid 2♣ on any 5332. Assuing pard has 4+ ♦'s, the QJ are pulling full weight. I agree that the ♥K may be hitting shortness, and perhaps can be discounted.

I tried that approach for a while but found it less useful to know about the 4D than about 3 or more clubs.