what is advantage of ACBL Stratified Games

[pbleighton]

"at live events, does playing up require permission from a TD?"

 

No, with a few exceptions at national events.

 

In my experience, very few people play up. They don't want the masterpoint hit.

 

Peter

[matmat]

In my experience, very few people play up. They don't want the masterpoint hit.

 

Peter

sad state of affairs that fiducial points matter more than decent bridge.

[pigpenz]

In my experience, very few people play up.  They don't want the masterpoint hit.

 

Peter

sad state of affairs that fiducial points matter more than decent bridge.

maybe so, but there are alot of people who play in acbl events who worry not only about their masterpoints but what their BBO rating is :D

 

So if people want a bbo rating system why not include all games free or money for the chance to win BBO points

[pbleighton]

"So if people want a bbo rating system why not include all games free or money for the chance to win BBO points"

 

Better still, why not a direct pay-for-play:

Novice: free

Intermediate: $5/month

Advanced: $10/month

Expert: $15/month

World Class: $20/month

 

Peter

[jikl]

It would be funny to see how many people could actually take the ego hit in ranking themselves as novices.

 

Sean

[hrothgar]

"So if people want a bbo rating system why not include all games free or money for the chance to win BBO points"

 

Better still, why not a direct pay-for-play:

Novice: free

Intermediate: $5/month

Advanced: $10/month

Expert: $15/month

World Class: $20/month

 

Peter

Best rating system ever!

[keylime]

Nah, per month pricing is overly generous - I want per USE pricing instead!

[Mr. Dodgy]

We could include dodgy points as well. The rating system becomes even more meaningless than it is now , if that is possible.

(no offence meant MrD  :) )

None taken :)

 

DodgyPoints are not dissimilar to ACBL or BBO MasterPoints, except I like integers, and they're FREE!

[Rain]

Will asking for stars be less popular now?

[jikl]

Will asking for stars be less popular now?

 

No but you will have some really cheap world class players with a * next to their name but a self-ranking of Novice :)

 

Sean

[Rain]

Uday said:

 

I try to solve this by assigning each player 'stratification points'. A pair gets the higher of the stratification points of the 2 players in the pair.

 

Star = some huge number of points (to force pair into A)

ACBL points = as is

BBO Points (used if no acbl points) are multiplied by some semi-arbitrary value , like 2 or 3

Level (used if no acbl, no bbo points) are used as a last resort

 

 

Actually this is very fun. It'll be interesting if "Level" is moved up in importance.

Hahahaha

[awm]

A couple points here:

 

(1) You should probably include BBO points in computing the strat for everyone. The issue is, suppose there's someone who has no ACBL points but lots of BBO points, probably a reasonably good player but not from north america. This puts them in, say, strat B. They play an ACBL tourney and scratch. Now they have a very small non-zero number of ACBL points. They move to strat C. Really you shouldn't be able to move down in strat (well unless the field gets a lot stronger).

 

(2) It might be interesting to use people's self-ratings as part of the stratification decision. Especially for players from outside north america, this will be more accurate than ACBL points or (probably) BBO points. There seem to be more players with "inflated" self-ratings than "deflated" ones. It'd be interesting to see if that changes if you use self-rating for stratification (I suspect not), but such a system would tend to penalize those who self-overrate (well assuming they play in stratified tourneys).

[Guest movingon]

Stratified games, I think, encourage weaker players to stick with the game as they will have "more success." In time, these weaker players should become better players. Stratified games is a way to promote the game of bridge, I do believe.

[Guest movingon]

I must add, though, that i don't see how one can evenly decide strata of all of the non-ACBL individuals in an international community that have played bridge for some years, particularly new members that have no BBO history.

[tooncestdc]

I like the addition of stratifying. I think it might be worth an experiment to flight one game a day. Since there are no overall awards, flighting does not have the usual problem of making the fields too small. The problem with the failed Life Master game is that the limited nature meant that it earned less points than the open game.

 

IF you wanted to do a flighted game, I think you would need flights ahead of time. My suggestion for the flights would be something like:

 

0-300 and BBO ranking of 4 or less

 

0-1500 and BBO ranking of 7 or less

 

Unlimited

 

For the strats, it may also be better to use the higher of a pair's ACBL ranking or adjusted BBO ranking.

 

 

(BTW, when the software gets there, I think a team bracketed KO tournament with 6-board rounds would be a big hit.)

[mike777]

I like the addition of stratifying.  I think it might be worth an experiment to flight one game a day.  Since there are no overall awards, flighting does not have the usual problem of making the fields too small.  The problem with the failed Life Master game is that the limited nature meant that it earned less points than the open game.

 

IF you wanted to do a flighted game, I think you would need flights ahead of time.  My suggestion for the flights would be something like:

 

0-300 and BBO ranking of 4 or less

 

0-1500 and BBO ranking of 7 or less

 

Unlimited

 

For the strats, it may also be better to use the higher of a pair's ACBL ranking or adjusted BBO ranking.

 

 

(BTW, when the software gets there, I think a team bracketed KO tournament with 6-board rounds would be a big hit.)

If "earned less points" is an issue then selling MP seems to be very important compared to the quality of the game.

[the hog]

This is possibly a naive question, but why would anyone want to play in a "startified" event? Surely anyone should be pleased to play against the best opposition possible.

[jillybean]

This is possibly a naive question, but why would anyone want to play in a "startified" event? Surely anyone should be pleased to play against the best opposition possible.

Exactly, that is why playing up is an important option for people who dont want to simply collect points. I find it confusing, a C player can earn points in A or B section so other than protecting the 'C' players from the better players I'm not sure what added value it has. (edited)

[uday]

Flighted events separate pairs by flights.

Stratified events allow pairs from different strata to meet.

[bid_em_up]

This is possibly a naive question, but why would anyone want to play in a "startified" event? Surely anyone should be pleased to play against the best opposition possible.

Exactly, that is why playing up is an important option for people who dont want to simply collect points. I find it confusing, a C player can earn points in A or B section so other than protecting the 'C' players from the better players I'm not sure what added value it has. (edited)

To clarify what uday said a little more, there are two types of events (ok, three), flighted, stratified, and strata-flighted.

 

A flighted event will seperate each section (or sections) into flights A, B, C and possibly even a D.

 

A stratified event will not separate the pairs, a pair from any given strata may play another pair from a different (higher or lower) strata. Only the final results and MP awards are based on strata. The higher the strata you place in, the higher the MP award is likely to be. Since MP awards are based on strata and the number of tables in play (in most cases), and the number of tables in play is based on an umbrella principle (Each strata encompasses every strata underneath it), the higher you place in a strata above you, the more MP you are apt to win. If you were/are a novice/beginner, and the only club game available to you was an open game, most players quickly tire of going and getting beat senseless and going home with nothing to show for it, week after week after week. The ACBL (rightly or wrongly) decided that by stratifying events, they would encourage attendance in both clubs and tournaments since the lower stratas would now be guaranteed to be able to have a chance to place somewhere.

 

Lets say there are 16 tables in play, with 5 from strata A, 5 from strata B and 6 from strata C. If memory serves me correctly, Strata A will pay 7 places (40% of 16 tables rounded up), Strata B will play 5 places (40% of the remaining 12 tables rounded up), and strata C will play 3 places (40% of 7tables rounded up). This effectively yields 15 possible payouts even though there are only 16 pairs in each direction and is a method to help the lower echelons possibly place somewhere and feel like they got something for their efforts AND to encourage them to return again another day.

 

Now, since the MP awards are based on the number of tables in play, the A strata has 16 tables, the B strata has 12 tables, the C strata has 7 tables. A player receives the HIGHER of what their award would be in each Strata they place in. If a strata B player scores 3rd in strata A but were first in strata B, it is entirely possible that their strata A mp award is greater than the one for being first in strata B. The same applies if a strata C player were to be 4th or 5th in A, 2nd or 3rd in B, but first in C. They receive mp award for whichever position would pay the most.

 

Strata-Flighted events are usually those where the top strata is removed to play seperately, and leave the B/C/D strats to play amongst themselves.

[barmar]

Strata-Flighted events are usually those where the top strata is removed to play seperately, and leave the B/C/D strats to play amongst themselves.

It's actually a little more complicated than that.

 

In a strati-flighted event, the top flight is also usually stratified, called A/X. Players with few MPs can play in the B/C/D flight, or they can "play up" in the X strat of the A/X flight. The latter choice gives them the opportunity to win even more MPs if they place in the A strat, but the risk is higher because they're playing against (presumably) tougher opposition than they would encounter in BCD. But they can also still earn points by placing in the X strat, so it's not as risky as playing up in a normal flighted event.

[tooncestdc]

This is possibly a naive question, but why would anyone want to play in a "startified" event? Surely anyone should be pleased to play against the best opposition possible.

Exactly, that is why playing up is an important option for people who dont want to simply collect points. I find it confusing, a C player can earn points in A or B section so other than protecting the 'C' players from the better players I'm not sure what added value it has. (edited)

You know, apart from the confusion that seems to be taking place between stratifying and flighting, I'm not sure what's up with the elitist attitude people seem to like to take around here. Stratifying and flighting has more to do with than just the buying of masterpoints.

 

Some people always want to challenge themselves against the best possible people in the game, and that's fine for them. But, I would think that most people enjoy competing when they have a chance to win. It's the same reason why I wouldn't play in the top softball or volleyball division. Getting your ass kicked by people that think on a higher level than you can be instructive, but often isn't much fun. And if I'm playing in a tournament, and have the best result among those with 1000 or less masterpoints (or however they want to rank skill levels) I'm still plenty proud, and I encourage events that recognize that achievement.

[pigpenz]

oh what happened to the good old days when there were just open pairs games that used to have 300 plus pairs ;) oooops there werent 3 KO's events running every day :(

[mycroft]

Stratifying is fine. What I don't like is that the concept got put in because "we don't want to play against the big boys because we never win" - and now "we don't want to play in the stratified events because we have to play against the big boys". Some people just want to push cards, and I wouldn't mind having division 2, 3, 4 ... for them; but the best stories are "beating the big boys".

 

My first big "I've made it" moment was the first time (after about 7 or 8 tries) I qualified for the final of the two-session Open pairs Qual/final+consolation. I didn't even qualify last! We got hammered in the evening, no doubt, but several people complimented me on my achievement just to make it.

 

I miss that game, because *everything's* stratified now.

 

In august (in one of those rare two-session open qualifiers games) Pd and I took a pair of multiple national champions for 25/27 on the round. There's a story I can tell to my grave, too. The next 10 times we meet them we're going to get our usual 40%, but a 60% game in a 0-500 field? Am I going to remember that next year, even?

 

The problem from my end with stratification (and aggressive I/N coordinators, who do everything to keep up the I/N numbers, including scare the players out of playing up) is that it's a temporary salve; players stay in their comfy hole until they hit 300/500/1500 MPs, then they stop playing because it's *still* too tough to win, and they no longer get their bennies for first in B.

 

And really, all you high C/low B players, haven't you had games where you placed because everyone else was worse, and really, really wanted to hand the masterpoints back? I know I have.

 

As far as masterpoints go, I don't care. If I overall, even if it's just a session award, fine. If I get strat awards, they don't get mentioned. But that's me.

 

Michael.

[pigpenz]

My first big "I've made it" moment was the first time (after about 7 or 8 tries) I qualified for the final of the two-session Open pairs Qual/final+consolation. I didn't even qualify last! We got hammered in the evening, no doubt, but several people complimented me on my achievement just to make it.

 

I miss that game, because *everything's* stratified now.

 

In august (in one of those rare two-session open qualifiers games) Pd and I took a pair of multiple national champions for 25/27 on the round. There's a story I can tell to my grave, too. .

yes I remember a friend of mine at a Regional got 50/50 on 2 boards in a final against Barry Crane at a regional in 84, and Barry even signed the convention card for him, he still has it ;)

 

those qualifying and final pairs games were great.