Bidding problem 9.876.543.231

[42]

I tried some hands :D

With this partner I played precision, but I am interested in other systems, too.

If someone plays Polish Club: is it a 1♣ opening (18+)?

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sxxh10xxdqxxxcakxx&s=sakjxxhaxxdkxxcqj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

South opens whatever his system tells him, W passes, N bids in many systems 1NT, nasty E interferes with 2♥.

 

 

a.) 1♣(!) (p) 1NT (2♥) // ?

 

b.) 1♠ (p) 1NT (2♥) // ?

 

 

Ok, now you can see both hands, but I would like to ask you to decide as if you don't do ;) Thx :)

 

Caren

[hrothgar]

Playing Polish Club, I would not open 1♣ with the hand in question.

Depending on partnership agreement, I'd open either a 15-17 HCP 1NT or 1♠

 

This is a clear 1♣ opening playing Precision

[rbforster]

In my strong club system (16+) it's a clear opener. Our auction would go

 

1♣-(p)-1♠* (GF balanced)-(2♥)

 

At this point opener would probably make a natural 2♠ call and I forsee an unfortunate 3NT played by South (say 3♥ asking, 3NT). Unless the A♦ is on side, 3NT looks very bad, and even with it on-side you may still need the Q♠ too.

[Robert]

Hi eveyone

 

Playing Precision you pretty much have to open 1C. The auction would go

1C*-1NT-(2H)-2S- and gets ugly from here forward.

 

I play the Meckwell type of bids here. 1C*-2D*(8-10 bal.)-2H-2S again and I now get to limp into a likely doomed game.

 

Sometimes hands just do not fit the system. This combination is not a good one for Precision. Standard methods will likely have problems with this hand.

 

It has been a while, however, I believe that a 1C bid in Polish is 19+ 'unless' with extreme shapes.

 

Precision tends to give me good results and I strive to work out the kinks. Some hands just cause problems and this is one of them.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Foxx]

Let's take a look at how this would be bid in standard or 2/1 systems.

 

1♠ - (P) - 1NT - (2♥) - and now I think 2NT - (P) - 3NT is an almost sure continuation. You could try bidding 3♥ to attempt to stay out of 3NT when North doesn't have help in hearts, but this could lead to trouble here. You might be able to stop in 3♠ opposite no heart values and a minimum, but is that really desirable?

 

3NT is a poor game, but it's only because of the layout suggested by the bidding that you don't want to be there. After winning the third heart, you pretty much have to run 3 clubs, then hook the spade hoping to pick up ♠Qxx in the cage. However, on a good day you'll catch West with a stiff heart honor, and your chances will be much better.

[keylime]

With Larry it's:

 

1♣* - 2♦* (balanced, 8-10, Puppet Stayman style)

2♠ - 3♣* (2 pieces, no 4 hearts)

 

At this point, 3D is a 4 card SAB ask, which I don't have. I can't rebid 3♠, that's showing six spades normally. I could rebid 3♥ tho, which is stop showing. Pard rejects at 3♠. I might do the 4♠ game.

 

Good thought provoking hand.

[42]

Hi :)

Yes, ugly hand... My very exerienced partner (North, 84 years old and still very flexible in her mind) said that she never had such a problem before :blink:.

 

I asked another partner of mine and he proposed a DOUBLE after

1♣ (p) 1NT (2♥) // DBL = pen , also after

1♠ (p) 1NT (2♥) // DBL = pen

 

I wondered how many players would find a clearsighted penalty DBL here with a possible ♠-fit...

 

How the bidding went on in reality:

 

1♣ (p) 1NT (2♥)

2♠ (p) 3♣ (p)

3NT (thinking §$%&/§ but pretending to be cooooooool ;))

 

The ♠Q was offside - what else...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

not playing Precision / Polish Clup

 

1) in your first seq.

Playing Precison, you have a GF, and I would

make a forcing pass

You are playing IMP's and you dont have to worry

to much about the difference between 500 and 600.

 

Partner will reopen with a double and that's it.

 

Playing Polish Club, where the 1C may contain

a weak NT you cant pass.

A double by opener now should show the strong variant,

since responder already denied a 4 card mayor (?!),

i.e. a neg. Dbl in the given seq. does not make sense,

because you cant have a 4-4 fit in spades.

And the Dbl should also show a semibal. shape, because

with a strong 1 / 2 -suiter you can bid the suit forcing.

 

2) in your second seq. you have a standard seq., except that

opener is limited to 17, which is not a lot add. information,

and game is still an option.

In standard, dbl would be neg., i.e. add. strength and shortage

in hearts, so I would bid 2NT, showing a strong NT opener with

a stopper, responder can now judge to bid 3NT or pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Robert]

Hi P_Marlowe

 

1) Do you nomally defend a 2H overcall 'after' making a forcing pass 'with both' Axx in the overcalled suit and an 'fairly strong unbid' 5 card major? It seems to me that your partner would double with 4=2=3-4 and 3=2=4=4 type hands. Defending at low levels with a 8-9 card fit is not normally going to get you good results.

 

Your bidding appears to work on this hand, 'unless' that 2H overcall is a two suiter in hearts/diamonds(or hearts/clubs?) say maybe 6-4 or 6-5? x KQJxxx Axxxx x makes two hearts doubled and with 'stronger' diamond spots(AJ109) will either go down one or even make on a lucky day.

 

Plus 500? If partner does not 'cover' your 'weak defensive holding' of QJ doubleton of clubs, overcaller holding KQJxxx hearts and AK10 of clubs is making 2Hs doubled 'at' IMPs. I almost never double a contract at IMPs without a two trick set in mind.

 

Even 'if' you beat a 2H contract one(2?) trick, you will often have a bigger plus in 2S, 3S or 4S in your 8-9 card spade fit.

 

Regards,

Robert

[P_Marlowe]

Hi P_Marlowe

 

1) Do you nomally defend a 2H overcall 'after' making a forcing pass 'with both' Axx in the overcalled suit and an 'fairly strong unbid' 5 card major? It seems to me that your partner would double with 4=2=3-4 and 3=2=4=4 type hands. Defending at low levels with a 8-9 card fit is not normally going to get you good results.

 

Your bidding appears to work on this hand, 'unless' that 2H overcall is a two suiter in hearts/diamonds(or hearts/clubs?) say maybe 6-4 or 6-5? x KQJxxx Axxxx x makes two hearts doubled and with 'stronger' diamond spots(AJ109) will either go down one or even make on a lucky day.

 

Plus 500? If partner does not 'cover' your 'weak defensive holding' of QJ doubleton of clubs, overcaller holding KQJxxx hearts and AK10 of clubs is making 2Hs doubled 'at' IMPs. I almost never double a contract at IMPs without a two trick set in mind.

 

Even 'if' you beat a 2H contract one(2?) trick, you will often have a bigger plus in 2S, 3S or 4S in your 8-9 card spade fit.

 

Regards,

Robert

Hi Robert,

 

I dont play a strong club system,

but I would asume, that responder

starts bidding the mayors before

he bits 1NT.

In other words, we may have a 5-3

fit, in spades, but not a 5-4.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: The open question is, which response

structure to the strong 1C is played and which

interference exists.

[42]

PS: The open question is, which response

structure to the strong 1C is played and which

interference exists.

We played stoneage precision (guess why ;)): a suit bid shows 5 cards...

So she was trying to warn me with 2♣ which could be only 4 cards.

 

A forcing pass didn't come into my mind for the reasons that Robert mentioned.

[Gerben42]

In PC I open 1♠.

 

After 1♣ 16+ pass 1NT 2♥ I bid 2♠.

 

After 1♠ 11 -17 pass 1NT 2♥ I bid Dbl (Not penalty). If I think partner would say it's penalty, I bid 3NT.

[Robert]

Hi P_Marlowe

 

I started playing Precision in the 70s(I think) and currently play a very modified version that is so far from 'book' Precision that I call it Big Club.

 

Precision bidding was used in the question that was asked(with a second part about Polish Club)

 

In Precision: 1C-1D=weak 0-7HCP any shape(or in 'book' Precision the 'impossible negative' 1444{any shortage} game forcing), 1C-1M=5+ cards with a game force,

1C-1NT=8-10(many other ranges are also played here)

 

A reply of 1NT might very well contain "one or two" four card majors. The percentage that responder has 3/4 spades I believe would rise when a 2H overcall is made(at IMPs) "in the middle" of a game forcing auction.

 

Looking at the two hands, I clearly see that your suggessed double is correct. This example hand is maybe 5-10% of normal 1NT replies after 1C-1NT 'with a 2H overcall.'

 

I would guess that responder has 3(4?) spades @ 90% of the time in this auction and would hold 4 spades maybe 30-40 % of the time.

 

I play most doubles for takeout in my system methods(whether Big Club or natural methods), however, my Precision background strongly suggest that I bid my fairly strong 5 card spade suit rather than miss a very likely 5-3(5-4?) spade fit.

 

Precision players normally find their 4-4 fits after 1C-1NT by using Stayman.

 

Regards,

Robert