cue raise

[jillybean]

1♠ (2♥) 3♥

 

3♥ limit raise or better in ♠ - does anyone play 3♥ here shows a ♥ control Ace or void?

tyia

jb

[neilkaz]

3♥ can be either LROB (which I much prefer), a game forcing spade raise, or any game forcing hand (in that case probably with a ♥ control).

 

In my late father's day, 3H most likely was a GF bid with a ♥ control, but most modern experts I know, really feel that they can Q controls later on if the hand is slamish.

 

Personally, I try to insist on LROB. Just my experiences .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

I play 3H as unconditionally G/F and offensive, because I have multiple ways to show degrees of limit raise and offensive/defensive in nature.

[neilkaz]

I play 3H as unconditionally G/F and offensive, because I have multiple ways to show degrees of limit raise and offensive/defensive in nature.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see more details of your methods here.

 

Thx .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

I feel that it might not be advisable to post in this forum; it involves a rather intrincate scheme that most beginners, intermediates, and some advanced players would struggle to grasp successfully.

[P_Marlowe]

I feel that it might not be advisable to post in this forum; it involves a rather intrincate scheme that most beginners, intermediates, and some advanced players would struggle to grasp successfully.

fair enough, but why even mentioned

the existence here?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

1♠ (2♥) 3♥

 

3♥ limit raise or better in ♠ - does anyone play 3♥ here shows a ♥ control Ace or void?

tyia

jb

Hi,

 

you would show shortage via a splinter.

 

You may like to distiguish between a

void and a single, but this would require

a complete scheme.

One option would be, to use a jump to

3NT after a major suit opener to show a

unsepcified void, with 4C asking.

 

But this is only of interest in case you are

looking for slam, and before you go looking

for slam, you need to find out, if you have

the power for game, i.e. you need to have a way

to invite.

Using the cue as LROB (never saw it before)

is a very easy / simple method, but fairly effective.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

I don't think you would find many who play this as showing a heart control too. By the way, I am not fond of letting 3♥ be invitational (limit) or better. I think it's more important for opener to know if you have a limit or game forcing hand with support.

 

Therefore, I suggest that you play 2NT as game forcing (Jacoby or similar as if there had been no overcall) and the cue bid as limit. Many top pairs play it like that; Sabine Auken - Daniela von Arnim for example.

 

Yes, you lose the natural meaning of 2NT (10-12 with stop(s) in the suit RHO overcalled), but if you have this hand, you can start with a negative double. It's all a matter of frequency and what's best for your whole system, and I believe you are better off if you are able distinguish between GF and limit hands with support for opener's major.

 

Roland

[Robert]

Hi keylime

 

I also am very interested in your bidding methods in this area.

 

Perhaps a 'hidden' text with a suitable warning for the beginning player(intermeadiate or 'some' advanced players)

 

I am 'not' very concerned that new bidding methods would cause me any possible harm.

 

A PM to neilkaz and myself would avoid any possible harm to newbies, intermediates and some advanced players.

 

Regards,

Robert

[inquiry]

I half agree with Roland. He wants it to be limit raise or game force, not both. I happen to think you can play it as limit raise or SLAM try. That is, you can play it not as a continious stregnth from say good 9 up, but rather it is good 9 to 11 or so, or 15, 16+. The idea being, if parnter tries to sign off in 3♠ and you bid again you have the slam try hand. The point being for the slam value hand is if your partner accepts the game try if you have the limit hand, then you will have enough extra for slam (or at least to make a slam move).

 

It puts way too much pressure on the partnership in a competitive auction if responder can have anywhere from 9 up.

 

I also follow Robson/Segal here with this 3H bid showing low ODR, while 2NT shows high ODR (offensive to defensive ratio) .And both 3H and 2NT deny the abilityto make a fit jump to 4C or 4d, or a splinter 4H.

[kenrexford]

On a similar vein to some of the posts here, I understand that Meckwell had some back-and-forth on how to distinguish 2NT from 3♥, whether GF, limit, 3-card, or 4-card. I believe the uncertainty revolved around whether to focus suit length (3-card limit+ or 4-card limit+) or to focus strength (3-card limit+ or 4-card limit+). There might even be dispute as to which is better for the "weaker" holding, to enable more space for game or slam tries, assuming a fourth-hand pass.

[jillybean]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Over 1M I do play 2nt and splinters as GF/slam interest.

 

The hand that prompted the question was this

 

[hv=d=n&n=saxxxxhkdaxcxxxxx&s=sxxxhaxxdxxxxcakx]133|200|1♠ (2♥) 3♥[/hv]

 

I passed the invitation reasoning the K♥ was wasted values, had we had the ability to show 1st level ♥ control we would have reached game.

[P_Marlowe]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Over 1M I do play 2nt and splinters as GF/slam interest.

 

The hand that prompted the question was this

 

[hv=d=n&n=saxxxxhkdaxcxxxxx&s=sxxxhaxxdxxxxcakx]133|200|1♠ (2♥) 3♥[/hv]

 

I passed the invitation reasoning the K♥ was wasted values, had we had the ability to show 1st level ♥ control we would have reached game.

Hi,

 

I would not loose a lot of sleep about

this hand (*), there is no wastage, what

so ever, even the single King of hearts

is relevant to make game, and so the

doubleton in diamonds, and you still

need a 3-2 spade break to loose only

2 trump tricks.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

(*)... besides the opening bid, but that is

a style issue ;)

[jillybean]

(*)... besides the opening bid, but that is

a style issue ;)

Ok, how bad is this opening bid? I thought it was one of my better ones. :D

 

[hv=s=saxxxxhkdaxcxxxxx]133|100|[/hv]

[neilkaz]

Your opening is OK with me but make the stiff king a queen and I pass.

 

Just my style .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

K. Silly question: How to do the hidden text?

 

I'll post it in that vein.

[the hog]

Ben's treatment is nice - limit raise or very strong, with 2NT as the GF raise.

[jillybean]

K. Silly question: How to do the hidden text?

 

I'll post it in that vein.

When you compose a post there is a

HIDDEN

button on the second row of Code Buttons.

All you need to do is

highlight the text that you want to hide

and press the button!

[jillybean]

Your opening is OK with me but make the stiff king a queen and I pass.

 

Just my style .. neilkaz ..

Make the stiff K a Q and I pass too :D

[jillybean]

I half agree with Roland. He wants it to be limit raise or game force, not both. I happen to think you can play it as limit raise or SLAM try. That is, you can play it not as a continious stregnth from say good 9 up, but rather it is good 9 to 11 or so, or 15, 16+. The idea being, if parnter tries to sign off in 3♠ and you bid again you have the slam try hand. The point being for the slam value hand is if your partner accepts the game try if you have the limit hand, then you will have enough extra for slam (or at least to make a slam move).

 

It puts way too much pressure on the partnership in a competitive auction if responder can have anywhere from 9 up.

 

I also follow Robson/Segal here with this 3H bid showing low ODR, while 2NT shows high ODR (offensive to defensive ratio) .And both 3H and 2NT deny the abilityto make a fit jump to 4C or 4d, or a splinter 4H.

Thanks for the reply, so with 12-14 in a competitive auction you simply bid game?

[inquiry]

I half agree with Roland. He wants it to be limit raise or game force, not both. I happen to think you can play it as limit raise or SLAM try. That is, you can play it not as a continious stregnth from say good 9 up, but rather it is good 9 to 11 or so, or 15, 16+. The idea being, if parnter tries to sign off in 3♠ and you bid again you have the slam try hand. The point being for the slam value hand is if your partner accepts the game try if you have the limit hand, then you will have enough extra for slam (or at least to make a slam move).

 

It puts way too much pressure on the partnership in a competitive auction if responder can have anywhere from 9 up.

 

I also follow Robson/Segal here with this 3H bid showing low ODR, while 2NT shows high ODR (offensive to defensive ratio) .And both 3H and 2NT deny the abilityto make a fit jump to 4C or 4d, or a splinter 4H.

Thanks for the reply, so with 12-14 in a competitive auction you simply bid game?

A good general rule in competitive bidding is to bid one more than you would wihout competive bidding. There is some grey areas...of course. So the short, general answer is that with 12 hcp and a fit for partner who opened, on this auction, I would almost assuredly force to game, but of course one would have to see the hand. With 13-14 and fit for partner, or course you are going to force to game.

 

The question of how you are going to force to game is a different matter. As noted in this thread, the cue-bid is one way to support. A 2NT bid is another. As are splinters or fit jumps.

 

And it also depends somewhat on your other agreements, that is, what does 1♠=(2♥)=4♠ show. Is this weak and preemptive, or are you promising minimum game value? Finally, if you are going to jump 4♠ with 12-14 or whatever game going values you want to use if for, you should know what you are going to do if they bid 5♥. That is, if you bid 4♠ directly, you have not help guide the decision should competition continue. This is why I like fit jumps so much, they get your partner to participate in the decision to double or bid on. This is more acute if the majors were reversed.

 

This is also an advantage of using 2NT as an offensively oriented raise and the cue-bid as a defensively oriented raise. Should they bid on later, you have already expressed good defense on one auction and good offense on the other. So if partner makes a forcing pass, regardless of which you expressed, he is allowing you to further evaluate (was it that much more offensive than defense, or do I have extra defense in the defensive one).

[keylime]

OK, here is what I play

 

1M (interference) ?

 

2NT -

forces 3C, either to play in a longish suit below 3M, or the start or any limit/GF that is defensive is nature. Offensive LR's I treat as G/F; I might as well be in game.

 

 

2NT - 3C - 3M:

A hand that is a defensive LR. Pard can now freely double.

 

 

2NT - 3C - 3NT:

A hand that wants to play 3NT

 

 

3NT -

a raise to 4, splinter in overcall suit

 

 

2NT - 3C - 4M:

defensive G/F

 

 

3M directly - offensive G/F.

I find that preemptive reraises hurt far more than they help, but then again I am a constructive bidder by nature these days.

 

 

4M direct -

preemptive, attacking bid, with some unknown shortage. 5332's are to be avoided unless NV vs. red.

 

 

If want the 4th interference stuff, holler fast. :D

[Robert]

Thanks keylime

 

A couple of questions/comments.

 

Bidding 2NT as 'either' a long suit or a defensive type limit raise seems very vulnerable to either single raises of the overcall or 'jump' raises(or even letting the overcaller rebid at the three level) How does partner know 'if' he is facing support or is in a misfit auction?

 

If you hold an offensive LR, down one(two?) is not always a good score. If partner opened a dog, bidding game with an offensive limit raise opposite a real dog opening seems to be inferior bidding to me.

 

Maybe at IMPs when I only need to make 38+% of my vul. games to break even, however, non vul. at IMPs or any vul. at MPs, this appears to be a poor gamble.

 

"If" the other pair does not jam the auction, partner will get the correct information, if they do bid, has a wheel come off of our auction?

 

Using the 3NT bid as a splinter gains what? What does 1M-(2Y)-4Y show 'if' it is not a splinter bid? You may avoid a double, however, you are still giving them more room to 'show support' or to make lead directing bids and/or 'fit showing' bids.

 

My defensive auctions would be making 'lead' directing bids by passed hands and 'fit showing' bids by unpassed hands.

 

My 3NT jump would show a desire to play 3NT. My splinter jump cue would show the splinter raise. Why shoulld I give them the room to 'cheaply' show support at the three level? Giving them the 4 level to make some raises, direct leads and/or show fit 'showing' bids seems a large price to pay to avoid a 'possible' double.

 

I switched to the Meckwell style 3M jump as showing 4+ trumps and @7-9 values. It seems to give me better results than the 3M 'weak' style.

 

Thanks again for the added information,

 

Regards,

Robert

[keylime]

Robert,

 

This scheme works under the following conditions (hidden text coming):

 

1.

You must play soundish openers. If you believe in light initial action, add a queen or subtract a loser in your evaluation.

 

 

2.

The ability to get out in 3 of a suit is nice. It allows responder to compete.

 

 

3.

It pays to be aggressive: the offensive LR's I've found a solid level of success with at any form of scoring.

 

 

4.

You can play mixed raises if you'd like, and that is part of my scheme: 1M-3M in and out of comp is mixed.

 

 

5.

Lastly, you can still play 3NT. 2NT, then 3NT. I've gained many penalties by this 2NT puppet and hammering them when they try that cutesy raise to 3M on me.

 

 

6.

I also forget the 4 level bid directly (comment coming): They are fit jumps with 4 trumps normally, sometimes 3.

 

 

Give it a try, I think you'll like it a lot.

[blackshoe]

I don't know why posters on bbo are so fond of hidden text. When I see it (or don't see it, if you like) I usually just skip it.