hi 2/1 question

[sceptic]

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=skhqj87dajt642ca5&w=sqt864hdk5ckqjt87&e=s92hat9653d83c942&s=saj753hk42dq97c63]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♦    Pass  1♠

 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♥

 4♣    4♥    Pass  5♦

 Pass  6♥    Dbl   7♦

 Pass  Pass  Dbl   Pass

 Pass  Pass  

 

 

The bid I am really interested in is norths 2nd bid

 

2 hearts

3 diamonds

2 diamonds

something else

 

name ur poison and feel free to say what you like about the biidding

[hrothgar]

I'd rebid 2♦

 

Hand isn't good enough for a reverse or 3♦

[Walddk]

I like 1♦ and 1♠ and that's about it. 3♦ is an overbid after which the wheels went off. 2♦ is enough. I also dislike 3♥, prefer 3♠. The contract will then be 3NT, likely 1 off on a club lead.

 

That's life.

 

After the 2♦ rebid, South has an invitational 3♦ available, and you will probably end up in the same hopeless 3NT.

 

Finally, how West could pass over 1♠ is beyond me. He didn't think he had a bid at the 2-level, but at the 4-level vulnerable he woke up all of a sudden. That's not the way I understand the game.

 

Roland

[EricK]

It makes no sense to me to play a jump rebid as weaker than a reverse (since the jump rebid gives you less room to stop at a lower level), so I would never choose 3♦ before 2♥. Either the hand is strong enough for a reverse in your methods or it isn't. In SA and its derviatives, it isn't

 

The later bidding seems to be a series of misunderstandings with cue-bids being mistaken for genuine suits and vice versa.

[mikeh]

Opener should, in my view, rebid a quiet 2♦ at his second turn.

 

Reverses can be played either as very strong (my preference) or as a very good 16 count or so... maybe some would reverse with AQx KJxx AJ10xx x, but that is not my style.

 

3♦ has a lower end weaker than that of a reverse, and a high end somewhere in the middle of the range of a reverse, but counting points is not the sole criterion.

 

I think that most players would treat a jump to 3♦ as denying 4♥. This, in theory, means that there will be hands on which opener has the values for 3♦ but chooses not to make the bid because he has 4♥s and lacks the values to reverse. This is an interesting theoretical issue, but it does not arise here, because opener lacks the strength for 3♦ anyway! Sure, the 1♠ bid bolsters the otherwise dubious ♠K (not worth 3 points when the opening bid decision is made) but not by any huge amount. That is not to say that one ought not rebid 3♦ on a suit of AJ10xxx and a 15 count, but the 15 count had better be a fine 15 when the suit is weak... and AJ10xxx is weak for a jump rebid suit.

 

Another and useful way for North to think is whether game will likely be missed if partner passes 2♦. Given the relatively soft nature of his values, he probably needs partner to have a decent 10 count with no particular fit or a goodish 9 count with a partial fit, and in both cases, responder will bid again.

 

Look at the impact of the '3♦ denies a 4 card major' point: Responder's 3♥ now becomes a choice of strains move: inviting 3N should opener stop ♣s, or 4♠ should opener have a hand that suggests a 3♠ bid, while preserving the chances of a ♦ contract.

 

Understood in this way, opener should be bidding 3N, not 4♥. 3N is an overbid, but only because opener doesn't hold a 3♦ bid to start with.

 

4♥ is an 'impossible' bid from responder's perspective: altho I can see making that bid with say Kx AQx AK109xx xx.... to me that would make sense: I cannot bid 3N, nor 3♠ and while 4♦ must be safe, in the sense that it is a bid partner could foresee, 3♥ does not actually deny 4+♥s, and maybe this hand will play well in a moysian or 5♦: give partner Axxxx Kxxx Qx xx and I like 4♥ as a matchpoint spot and make the ♥ KJxx and I even like it as an imp spot.

 

Opener showed a complete lack of appreciation for the nuances of the 5♦ call: he had an absolutely clear pass.

 

BTW, I would have to have been struck dumb and paralytic to have passed 1♠ as West.

[Guest Jlall]

2D...not good enough for a reverse.

[HeartA]

It makes no sense to me to play a jump rebid as weaker than a reverse (since the jump rebid gives you less room to stop at a lower level), so I would never choose 3♦ before 2♥.

Completely agree. Jump to 3♦ is wrose than 2♥ (I don't mean the hand is good enough for 2H. It is NOT). It not only uses more space, but also distorted the shape.

[mike777]

2D...not good enough for a reverse.

Agree as many others have said.

 

With all of that said, this is a tough hand for me. Playing lightish openings, South looks like she has a pass of 2D to me. I may be missing game on this one.

 

Geez and you bid it to 7D? B)

 

For some really wierd bidding try:

 

1nt=2h

2s=3nt

 

May make on a heart lead?

[whereagles]

If you open light, as in by today's standards, I believe North IS worth a reverse or 3♦. The reverse is obviously preferrable.

 

What is also obvious is that South took 3♦ as a way stronger bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2D is certainly the best bid.

 

Value of the King of spade is unclear

 

Exchange the King of spade with

a small spade, adding the King

of Diamonds, 3D would be fine.

 

If you had the KIng of hearts instead

2H would be fine.

 

4H is fine, but you should pass 5D,

you already told partner about your 4

card heart suit, he was not interested.

 

And holding a min. 3D bid, you should

respect partners sign of.

 

It can be argued, that 4D instead of 3H

from your partner is a better bid, it sets

trumps and starts a cue bidding seq.

But it depends to a large degree on the min.

requirements for a 3D call, if responder

should look for slam or has still to investigate

3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I will not write, what I think about the 4C bid

and the double from East.

[Codo]

I am quite surprised, that people can think about 3 ♦ here (or even bid it!).

This bid is simply not bridge for me.

If you are strong enough for a strong move, 2 ♥ stands out a mile.

 

It depends on the system, whether this hand has the strength for a reverse. In limited systems like strong club or even in polish club, it is strong enough. But if you play 2/1 this is not even close to a reverse, as you already promised a sound opener.

[helene_t]

As others have said, it doesn't make much sense to play 3♦ as weaker than 2♥. Yet this happens to be a common treatment. So 3♦ is more awkward than it's incorrect.

 

2♦ is a practical rebid if you have the agreement that

1♦-1♠

2♦-2♥

3♥*

is forcing. This is more or less standard here in NL, not sure about the rest of the World. Without firm agreements about this, I would rebid 2♥ with the North hand. I know it's an over-bid but it makes the rest of the auction easier.

 

South's 3♥ bid is ok, what else can he do. It's not uncommon for this to be a 3-card. Of course, this deal shows how it can go wrong and if you have a regular partner that likes to discuss bidding theory, you should make agreements about this. Some artificial rebid by North (2♣ and 2NT are under-loaded in standard methods so you can put some difficult hands into those) are among the options.

 

North's 4♥ is acceptable but I prefer a forcing pass. If south can double 4♣, North is happy to leave it in.

 

South's 5♦ is fine. It shows that he has a slam-try in diamonds and probably only 3 (or maybe 4 bad) hearts. North obviously did not understand this, since he has a clear-cut pass of 5♦. But even if he thinks that 3♥ guarantees a 4-card and/or that 5♦ was a cue for hearts (both assumptions are reasonable although I happen to disagree), he should not bid 6♥. 5♥ is enough since he already over-stated his values with his 3♦ rebid.

 

Finally, West must be a novice.

[Wackojack]

Reverses can be played either as very strong (my preference) or as  a very good 16 count or so... maybe some would reverse with AQx KJxx AJ10xx x, but that is not my style.

 

I don't see any problem in reversing with AQx,KJxx,AJ10xx, x. After all give partner only KJxxx,xxx,Kx,xxx and there is a good play for game. otoh if you exchange opener's black suits, a reverse into 2♥ is a no-no.

 

Back to basics: A reverse requires extra strength to cater for partner's possible preference at the 3-level. In the sequence 1♦-1♠-2♥, responder can make weak sign-offs of 2♠, 2NT (assuming no gadgets here) and 3♦. It follows that if opener has 6 diamonds and 4 hearts, the strength required to reverse cannot be greater than to jump. So after 1♦-1♠, a jump to 3♦ must NOT be be made holding 4 hearts. This is quite apart from the problem that arises after 1♦-1♠-3♦-3♥. Where 3♥ is a no trump probe on a 3 card suit not able to bid 3NT because clubs are not stopped.

 

As for south actual 15 HCP hand. The singleton K♠ and not very good playing strength in diamonds make a 2♥ reverse very pushy. Give partner a hand like Axxx, xxx, Kx, Q10xx and this bid might be the only way to get to a chancy 3NT, but I wouldn't bet on it. So rebid 2♦

[bearmum]

Dealer: North Vul: EW Scoring: IMP ♠ K ♥ QJ87 ♦ AJT642 ♣ A5 ♠ QT864 ♥ [space] ♦ K5 ♣ KQJT87 ♠ 92 ♥ AT9653 ♦ 83 ♣ 942 ♠ AJ753 ♥ K42 ♦ Q97 ♣ 63  

 

West  North East  South

 

 -     1♦    Pass  1♠

 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♥

 4♣    4♥    Pass  5♦

 Pass  6♥    Dbl   7♦

 Pass  Pass  Dbl   Pass

 Pass  Pass  

 

 

The bid I am really interested in is norths 2nd bid

 

2 hearts

3 diamonds

2 diamonds

something else

 

name ur poison and feel free to say what you like about the biidding

1. N is NOWHERE near strong enough for the 3♦ bid ( P has denied 11+ points with his 1♠ bid (in 2/1 as I play it) so NO Game force

 

2. BUT as P has bid 3♦ why does S not rebid his ♠s? NF as didn't bid 1NT forcing the first time :)

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

2. BUT as P has bid 3♦ why does S not rebid his ♠s? NF as didn't bid 1NT forcing the first time :)

<snip>

Hi,

 

however you play it, but opposite a standard 3D,

you want to reach game, i.e. a NF bid is no option.

Besides, it is open to discussion, if 3S is really NF.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

Besides, it is open to discussion, if 3S is really NF.

I don't think so. I think every expert would say it's forcing.

[mike777]

Another huge problem is 1 minor=1major=3minor can have such a huge range and mean so many things esp. if you play lightish openings. I have found, for me, it really helps to play it really as sort of sayc standardish(16-17?) and give up the extra ranges.

[mikeh]

1. N is NOWHERE near strong enough for the 3♦ bid ( P has denied 11+ points with his 1♠ bid (in 2/1 as I play it) so NO Game force

 

2. BUT as P has bid 3♦ why does S not rebid his ♠s?  NF as didn't bid 1NT forcing the first time  :P

If 1♠ denied 11+ points, you are NOT playing 2/1 GF. I am not sure what your method should be called, but it is definitely nothng like 2/1. Nor is 1N a forcing response to 1minor in 2/1.

[bid_em_up]

1st choice of rebid by N: 2♦

2nd choice of rebid by N: 2♦

3rd choice of rebid by N: 2♦

 

A distance 4th choice: 2♥....if you're going to lie about the strength of the hand, at least show the hand pattern.

 

:P

[whereagles]

1st choice of rebid by N: 2♦

2nd choice of rebid by N: 2♦

3rd choice of rebid by N: 2♦

 

A distance 4th choice: 2♥....if you're going to lie about the strength of the hand, at least show the hand pattern.

 

:)

I like to classify opening hands as follows:

 

12-14: min

15-17: med

18-20: max

21+: open 2♣

 

In this scheme, a reverse shows a med or max hand. The hand in question, with 15 hcp, classifies as a "med", so it's just barely worth a reverse.

 

So.. it's only a lie about strength if you classify openers differently. I often see that players in the US tend to widen the borders, as in

 

12-15: min

16-19: med

20-23: max

 

In this classification, the hand is just barely NOT worth a reverse.

[blackshoe]

I would classify 12-15- as minimum,

15+-18 as medium,

19-21 as maximum

 

for a 1 level opener. I would prefer to play a system that limits the 1 level opening though - this range is way to wide, IMO.

 

The trend to emasculate the formerly game forcing 2♣ opening in Standard systems is a bad idea IMO. That bid is already way too "busy".

 

Not to mention that most people's opening NT ladder is, well, pretty ricketty.

 

That's why I like Romex - four forcing opening bids, and 1 of a suit is limited to about 18 HCP. ;)

[mike777]

What do these numbers mean? Points?

What points? I assume you are not talking about 4321 count?

 

How is 21 hcp an automatic 2club opener for example?

[whereagles]

What do these numbers mean?  Points?

What points? I assume you are not talking about 4321 count?

 

How is 21 hcp an  automatic 2club opener for example?

If you're talking to me, I'm referring to hcp, yes. Obviously, my min/med/max ladder isn't rigid but judgement-dependent.

 

As for an automatic 2♣ on any 21+ hands, that's the idea, yes. Or close to it, at least. 2♣ would show one of the following:

 

1. One-suited, 18+ (a strong two or better hand, so that you don't need to make clumsy jump-shifts with strong 6-3s)

2. Two or three-suited, 21+

3. Balanced 23+ (20-22 opens 2NT of course)

 

The idea is to narrow the range for a 1x bid and set a celling, taking into account the fact that 21+ hands are just too rare. However, this is just part of a much broader strategy.

[Wackojack]

Acol has an advantage here over 2/1 or SA whether Benji or standard with 2 strong opening bids. (GF and 8+playing tricks). The 1x-3x can be weaker than SA or 2/1. Rule of thumb 6.5-7.5 playing tricks provided it is over pre-empt strength.

[brianshark]

As far as I know, for a reverse you need the equivalent of 16.5 points or more (not just a mimimum medium hand... if you get me).

 

I'm sure 3♦ would explicitly deny the ability to reverse, thus denying 4♥s or 4♠s. So, as was said, a distortion as well as an overbid. Plus, your ♦ suit is crap.