Walddk Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 [hv=d=n&v=n&s=sq865h7d7ckq108653]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Four intermediate players around the table on BBO the other day. It all started quietly when North opened 1♥ and East passed, but after that things went horribly wrong for NS. Now, put yourself in the South seat. What is your response to partner's 1♥? It's too simple, is it not? Maybe it isn't after all. Think about it after I tell you that it might be a good idea to look further ahead. (Let the beginners/intermediates have a go at this. They don't get too many problems in this forum as it is. If you are advanced or better, feel free to chip in, but if you do, you are kindly requested to use hidden text). Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Swans almost always play best in their long suit. If there was ever a hand to suppress Spades and show clubs, its this one. I'm not sure what system we're playing, but I'll use whatever methods that I have to show a long club suit. Playing 2/1, I'll bid a forcing NT, and follow up with 3♣Playing Standard or Acol I'll bid 2♣ and rebid 3♣ over anything but 2♠ (In a perfect world, partner put a gun to my head and forced me to play intermediate jump shifts, so I can bid 3C and get this off my hands with one bid) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jocdelevat Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 I pass and wait for west to reopen then jump in 3c or 4c looks like a misfit no good for nt contract. I suppose pard has diamonds and hearts if I bid 1s or 2c after 2d im stuck pard will have no transportation to play an nt contract.I do not play strong jump shift so I can bid 3c too but will end in a nt contract which has no play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 If I show my 4♠ I will never be able to convince my partner that I have 7♣ so I must start with 2♣. If partner responds 2♥ I can show my ♠ now. I dont think this is a reverse, having already overbid my hand if its a reverse I am in even deeper trouble. If my partner bids 2nt I will bid 3♣ and let my partner decide if 3nt will play. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted November 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 If I show my 4♠ I will never be able to convince my partner that I have 7♣ so I must start with 2♣. If partner responds 2♥ I can show my ♠ now. I dont think this is a reverse, having already overbid my hand if its a reverse I am in even deeper trouble. 2♠ would show an opening hand (also playing standard or Acol) after 1♥ - 2♣2♥ - 2♠ With exactly 4 spades, a longer minor and less than opening values, one must start with 1♠ over 1♥. This is the issue here, isn't it? But ..... :) Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 This is an excellent thread, Roland. I will not post my thoughts, even hidden, until we see more B-I posters, but as a hint: this hand requires that we think strategically: anyone who appreciates the point of this hand is well on the way to becoming a bridge player as opposed to someone who plays bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 If partner responds 2♥ I can show my ♠ now. I dont think this is a reverse, having already overbid my hand if its a reverse I am in even deeper trouble. Yes, it IS a reverse, showing longer clubs than spades. If you want to show 7 good clubs with such strength, you will NEVER be able to show 4-card spades even if pd rebids spades and you support it. Strategically (or statistically), it may be the right thing to abandon spades and show your clubs, by responding 1NT and bid 3C, or 3C directly (kind of invitational like in the other thread). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 The only point I would add is that the system you are playing does matter: is a 1NT response forcing, 'semi-forcing' or passed on any 12-15 balanced hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 I think you need to show and bid this hand that promises a weak but long club suit in what ever style you play. Ignore spades. For most of us that means starting with a forcing/semiforcing nt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted November 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 The only point I would add is that the system you are playing does matter: is a 1NT response forcing, 'semi-forcing' or passed on any 12-15 balanced hand? I don't disagree, Frances, but how likely is it that opener has a balanced hand in the 12-14 range when you are 4117? I am not saying that 1NT is the correct bid (I won't reveal anything at this point), but if it is the bid, I would not be afraid of responding 1NT even if it's passable. Opener is indeed entitled to pass if you play Sayc, Acol or French Standard, whereas 1NT, in theory at least, is forcing if you play 2/1. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Playing 2/1 1♥ - 1NTX - 3♣ A delayed jump of a new suit is mildly invitational, good 6/7 cards suit (like a weak 2 bid). Not as good as a direct jump on the first round. This hand is not good enough for an Invitational Jump Shift If pard bids 2♠, showing a big 4=5 then we may be able to help out, though there is a lot to ruff in Diamonds and Hearts. Probably game is the lmit of this hand even opposite a Reverse. If pard bid 2♣ then Hmmm. 5 C is still a long way off. The opps may balance with Spades at some point, boy will they be surprised at the distribution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Playing 2/1 1♥ - 1NTX - 3♣ A delayed jump of a new suit is mildly invitational, good 6/7 cards suit (like a weak 2 bid). Not as good as a direct jump on the first round. This would not be a delayed jump though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 This would not be a delayed jump though. That is what I was going to say. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 (edited) I understand 1♥:2♣ 2♥:2♠ IS a reverse, I'm still not clear that it shows extra values....I'm going back to read the thread on reverses again :) http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=11365 Ok yes it is a reverse and it does show extra values B) maybe, I am completely lost on these fine points Edited November 10, 2006 by jillybean2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 I understand 1♥:2♣ 2♥:2♠ IS a reverse, I'm still not clear that it shows extra values....I'm going back to read the thread on reverses again B) http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=11365 Ya this can be quite confusing. Great issue. Along the same lines look at what "extra's" mean. This is also a confusing issue. Even after a few years of coming back to bridge ...the range of what "extra's" mean to many players who I regard as fine bidders can be confusing. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? My impression remains that a reverse is a bid beyond the cheapest available call in your first-bid suit. Since after 1♥-2♣-2♥, the cheapest possible call in responder's first bid suit is 3♣, and 2♠ is a lower call, it's not a reverse. Of course, whether 2♠ is a reverse and whether it shows extras/is forcing are totally different questions. It's fairly standard that 2♠ here is forcing to game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 I understand 1♥:2♣ 2♥:2♠ IS a reverse, I'm still not clear that it shows extra values....I'm going back to read the thread on reverses again :) http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=11365 Ok yes it is a reverse and it does show extra values B) A reverse from responder shows at least opening strength and game forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? My impression remains that a reverse is a bid beyond the cheapest available call in your first-bid suit. Since after 1♥-2♣-2♥, the cheapest possible call in responder's first bid suit is 3♣, and 2♠ is a lower call, it's not a reverse. Of course, whether 2♠ is a reverse and whether it shows extras/is forcing are totally different questions. It's fairly standard that 2♠ here is forcing to game. Well, since all the world calls this a reverse, I suppose it is a reverse - who claimed English is logical? However, I think it makes sense to say that a reverse is any sequence of two suit bids such that you end up at a higher level than if you had bid the same suits in the cheapest possible way. I.e. you reversed the order, compared to the cheapest possible way to bid them. Since 2♣-then-2♠ forces to a higher level than 1♠-2♣, the first is a reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? Because you responded 2♣ at your first turn and skipped 1♠. 2♠ confirmed that you had the strength to bid ♠ later. A simple 2♣ and then 3♣ (per agreement between partnership) shows a weaker hand of clubs suits only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? My impression remains that a reverse is a bid beyond the cheapest available call in your first-bid suit. Since after 1♥-2♣-2♥, the cheapest possible call in responder's first bid suit is 3♣, and 2♠ is a lower call, it's not a reverse. Of course, whether 2♠ is a reverse and whether it shows extras/is forcing are totally different questions. It's fairly standard that 2♠ here is forcing to game. This IS a reverse. (Reverse by responder). It SHOWS extra values and is a game force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Just to swim a little against the tide ... We play responder's reverse is just a one-round force. As such after a 2/1 it does not promise any extra values. Looking through the sayc notes that I have it is not clear to me that responder's reverse is GF in that system: " A new suit response (other than after a 1NT rebid by opener) is a one-round force (but not forcing to game)." The 1NT rebid auctions hinted at there are made more explicit in those notes "Second round forcing bids following a 1NT rebid by opener: A reverse or jump shift into a new suit is a game force." but there is nothing to suggest that a reverse is FG. "If responder initially bids a new suit at the two level, the same rules apply EXCEPT that a subsequent jump raise of opener's first suit to the THREE LEVEL is game forcing (responder should make a limit raise directly over the opening with 10-12 points and at least three-card support)" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Richard said it all, except that maybe he should have clarriified what a "swan" is. Anyway, this hand is too weak for 2♣ playing any post-1960 bidding system so it really doesn't matter what system you play. 1NT followed by 3♣, even in Acol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boris3161 Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Playing acol, I wouldn't feel comfortable to bit 1nt with a four card spade suit. So, the decision for me is between 1♠ and 2♣ - clearly 2♣ describes my hand better so that is what I would bid. If my partner responds with ♦ or rebids ♥, I am probably not strong enough to show my spades. C'est la vie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 1♥ - 1NTX - 3♣ The X = a bid Its not a jump over the 2nd bid, its a jump over the first bid. Hence I wrote "Delayed" jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQs Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 I think I would pas at start (as jocdelevat wrote). Looks easy to describe hand IF reopened by opps (by their bids too) or go defence maybe. The problem with that "IF" ;) I definitely need the final answer. With forcing NT I agree wih 1♥-1NT-2♦/♥-3♣ In Polish club seems easy: 1♥-2♣-2♦/♥-3♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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