Another assign the blame?

[gwnn]

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=skxxxhxxdxcajt9xx&w=sqt9hkq9xxxdajxxc&e=sjxxhjxdkqxxxcxxx&s=saxxhatxdxxxckqxx]399|300|Scoring: MP

p-1♣-1♥-2♣

p-p-2♥-3♣

3♥-X-A.P.[/hv]

 

+1. Pts=-930. MP=3%

[Walddk]

I can't vote because I will give them 100% each. North for making the gross underbid of 2♣ (assuming that you don't play inverted raises), South for doubling 3♥ with a flat minimum opposite a single raise and only A10x in hearts.

 

I agree with South's 1♣ and pass of 2♣; I do not agree with North's 2♣ ( he even had a negative double available if that shows 4 spades in your system, otherwise 1♠). I could perhaps live with his bypassing of spades, but if he decides to do that, then at least bid what this hand is worth to most people:

 

Either 2♥ if that is your limit+ bid, or 3♣ if you play that as limit. North's hand is much closer to a game force than a single raise.

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like the bidding by North, but ok,

it was not responsible for the final score.

 

So the blame goes 100% to South, I wonder

how many tricks he thinks North can provide

after a simple 2C raise?

2? Means South has to provide 3, which 3 tricks?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: You did not ask judgement about Wests bidding,

so I will keep silent.

[Finch]

Everything Roland said.

100% each...

 

To see how powerful the North hand is opposite real clubs, just move South's queen of clubs into spades and suddenly 6C has play.

[1eyedjack]

Like it or not, having chosen 2C, why did North not bid 2S over 2H on second round? Surely there must still be scope for a Spade fit?

 

I have to say I would not have doubled, and North's bidding, however poor, would if anything dissuade me even more from doubling, so I assign most of the blame to South

[Walddk]

Like it or not, having chosen 2C, why did North not bid 2S over 2H on second round? Surely there must still be scope for a Spade fit?

How can he invent a suit he already denied when he bid 2♣? You will never make your partner believe that 2♠ shows a suit. I don't think anyone has a system where certain bids say:

 

"Sorry, partner, I regret what I did on my first turn."

 

It is exactly the same as if you open say 1♦ on a balanced 16 count. You may get lucky later, but you can't repair the damage in the sense that partner will ever believe that you have a balanced hand in the 15-17 range (given that you play strong NT, of course).

 

Roland

[david_c]

Like it or not, having chosen 2C, why did North not bid 2S over 2H on second round? Surely there must still be scope for a Spade fit?

How can he invent a suit he already denied when he bid 2♣? You will never make your partner believe that 2♠ shows a suit.

I don't agree that 2♣ denies a spade suit. But even if it is generally your style to show spades first when holding longer clubs, what else could a 2♠ bid mean here?

[awm]

North has bid more like he holds Kxxx xx xx AJTxx, and the extra club makes his 2♣ call something of an underbid. But south's double of 3♥ is simply terrible. He has two defensive tricks and partner hasn't promised much. I'd give the blame 25% to north (for underbidding the hand and not putting more pressure on the opponents at first turn) and 75% to south for the terrible double.

[Walddk]

Like it or not, having chosen 2C, why did North not bid 2S over 2H on second round? Surely there must still be scope for a Spade fit?

How can he invent a suit he already denied when he bid 2♣? You will never make your partner believe that 2♠ shows a suit.

I don't agree that 2♣ denies a spade suit. But even if it is generally your style to show spades first when holding longer clubs, what else could a 2♠ bid mean here?

I must have missed something if it it isn't standard that you show a spade suit if you have one. I don't know what you mean by "first". Who says that I will get another chance?

 

It's not like an auction where we bid

 

1♥ - 2♣

 

Then I can have four spades (if my hand is good enough to force to game, that is). I will get one more chance for sure, and if my hand had been invitational or worse, I would start with 1♠.

 

And you will have to ask a better player than me if you want to interpret 2♠ on this auction ....

 

1♣ - (1♥) - 2♣ (2♥)

Pass Pass 2♠

 

I sincerely don't understand how a 6-9 hand can bid 2♠ now. Unless, of course, if I play inverted raises and that 2♣ would be forcing also after an overcall. If that is the case, 2♠ makes sense.

 

Roland

[1eyedjack]

Like it or not, having chosen 2C, why did North not bid 2S over 2H on second round? Surely there must still be scope for a Spade fit?

How can he invent a suit he already denied when he bid 2♣? You will never make your partner believe that 2♠ shows a suit.

Whether 2C denies 4 card Spade suit is subject to agreement. I rather assumed that under their agreements the suit was not denied, by reason of the fact that it was in fact held.

I don't think anyone has a system where certain bids say:

 

"Sorry, partner, I regret what I did on my first turn."

Oddly enough I did used to play something like this, in my days as a pretentious student upstart playing fancy club system. We used a ridiculously complicated system of relays and asking bids. One problem (of many) with such systems is if you get a step wrong you can end up painting a picture that bears absolutely no relation with the cards held. To such an extent that it can become apparent to partner that his hand is impossible. We used to have a system of identifying when that was the case, codifying it into the system and then reverting to natural. Ah, happy days.

[mike777]

I can understand the problem North has assuming you do not play sound opening bids. Your hand is too strong for a weak 3club bid and not good enough to show a limit raise. Are you going to sit for 3nt at MP? I think this north hand bears more discussion.

 

Assuming you play Good/Bad 2nt I guess I would start with a neg x and try and plan on bidding good/bad 2nt relay to 3clubs later but without it what? Neg x and 3clubs invites 3nt yes?

[the hog]

"I don't agree that 2♣ denies a spade suit. But even if it is generally your style to show spades first when holding longer clubs, what else could a 2♠ bid mean here?"

 

Like Roland, I would say that that the 2C bid categorically denies S. There is absolutely no guarantee on this hand that you will get to show your S suit. I would also say that it is not "my style" to show S when you have them and support for partner in a limited hand, but it is just normal good bidding.

[neilkaz]

South's double is terrible even trying for a magic +200 at MP's. He has a flat 13 count and N has 5 or 6 clubs on the bidding. Clearly one opp stiff or void in ♣.

 

All North has shown from his poor bidding is a simple raise of ♣ with perhaps and extra trump or a bit of distribution.

 

Why doesn't N make a negX and then if opener cannot bid spades he can bid 3♣ which in standard should show this hand-type since 2NT would be a generic invite to 3NT ( I prefer good-bad, but that is not the issue here)

 

After N's somewhat underbid raise to 2♣ he should call 2♠ rather than 3♣ since opener can have 4♠

 

Blame 25% to N for poor bidding and 75% to S for a pipe dream double.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[HeartA]

I agree with most that 2C was a bad (very bad) bid. And North could have bid 2S over 2H. Anyway, I assign most of the blame to South. After all, South got minimum flat hand, the double is rediculous.

[mike777]

To those that make a neg x what are you planning on bidding over 2H by rho? Is 3clubs an invite or just competing if not playing good/bad 2nt? I just think saying 2clubs is a terrible bid is a bit strong....?

[HeartA]

To those that make a neg x what are you planning on bidding over 2H by rho? Is 3clubs an invite or just competing if not playing good/bad 2nt? I just think saying 2clubs is a terrible bid is a bit strong....?

Depending on the agreement between partnership, North can bid 1S (if it only guarantees 4 card), or X (if it means 4-card of S). If North doubles over 1H, he can bid 3C over opp's 2H, showing super C-fit and 4-card spades. Finally, if North wants to ignore spades, he should bid 3C, instead of 2C.

[Wiste1]

Agree with Roland.

But what is this post doing in the Advanced and Expert-Class Bridge ?

[david_c]

"I don't agree that 2♣ denies a spade suit. But even if it is generally your style to show spades first when holding longer clubs, what else could a 2♠ bid mean here?"

 

Like Roland, I would say that that the 2C bid categorically denies S. There is absolutely no guarantee on this hand that you will get to show your S suit. I would also say that it is not "my style" to show S when you have them and support for partner in a limited hand, but it is just normal good bidding.

It's just my opinion, of course, but I feel you are worrying too much about finding spades. Ideally we would like to be able to tell partner about both black suits. But partner has opened clubs, and clubs is our longest suit. So, if I am to get only one bid on a hand like this, I want it to be in clubs. "Support with support", and all that.

 

♠ xxxx

♥ xx

♦ Ax

♣ K9xxx

 

This is the sort of hand I would suggest for the sequence

1♣ : (1♥) : 2♣ : (2♥)

pass : (pass) : 2♠.

 

And this sequence shows another advantage of starting with 2♣: it limits the hand immediately, putting us in a good position to be able to compete for the part-score later without worrying that partner might getting excited. If you had started by showing spades, then bidding 3♣ now would sound more encouraging.

 

Now of course it is true that if you bid 2♣ on this sort of hand you might not be able to find spades later. That is a risk. But I believe it is much more of a risk to bid spades instead and possibly leave yourself unable to show clubs. At the point where you are choosing your bid over 1♥, you don't know how the auction will turn out. Maybe your side will have the rest of the auction to itself. Maybe it is a low-level part-score hand. Or maybe the deal is a huge fit for both sides and the auction will come back to you at 4♥. It's this last possibility which should most concern you, since it is the one which is most costly to get wrong, and in the other cases it is likely (not guaranteed, but likely) that you will eventually find your best spot wherever it is. If the deal is a big fit, then your call over 1♥ is your only chance to get in, as you don't have a good enough hand for a second bid at the 4-level. And the one thing you do know is that if this is the case, your primary fit is in clubs, not spades. So I will bid the clubs.

[Apollo81]

While North's bidding on the hand was atrocious, it did not cause the final result. South has no reason whatsoever to double 3♥. North could have bid 4♣ without the double.

 

-Noble

[inquiry]

Why blame anyone?

 

♦ lead

Win ♥ ACE <<-------- trick one

♦ ruff with suit preference <<---- trick two

♠Ace <<-----------trick 3

♦ruff <<------------trick 4

♠king <<----------trick 5

 

+200 Matchpoint nirvana

[bid_em_up]

Why blame anyone?

 

♦ lead

Win ♥ ACE <<-------- trick one

♦ ruff with suit preference <<---- trick two

♠Ace <<-----------trick 3

♦ruff <<------------trick 4

♠king  <<----------trick 5

 

+200 Matchpoint nirvana

Its going to be awfully hard for North to ruff twice after South wins the A♥, seeing as how he only started with two trumps and all.....

 

:rolleyes:

[inquiry]

Why blame anyone?

 

♦ lead

Win ♥ ACE <<-------- trick one

♦ ruff with suit preference <<---- trick two

♠Ace <<-----------trick 3

♦ruff <<------------trick 4

♠king  <<----------trick 5

 

+200 Matchpoint nirvana

Its going to be awfully hard for North to ruff twice after South wins the A♥, seeing as how he only started with two trumps and all.....

 

:rolleyes:

Darn....

 

Another good defense nipped in the bud....