Your bid

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sq9ha42dkq3cq10942]133|100|Scoring: MP

N E S W

P 1♥ p p

1♠ 2♥ ? [/hv]

 

This came up last night at the local club. The opps were 2 LOLs. Although my partner's bid did not turn out well it did not seem to me to be obviously wrong. Would you have done as he did?

 

I will point out that we play that a 1 level overcall in the balance position could be a good 4 card suit and a double is otherwise normal. l

[HeartA]

I would have overcalled 2C directly. Now I bid 3C (constructive). 2NT is my second choice. Double would penalty and is out. Partner could have 4 spades only, and I don't want to support with 2.

[sceptic]

I would bid 2 clubs before this bid, now I bid 3 clubs and can quite possibly regret it

[hrothgar]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sq9ha42dkq3cq10942]133|100|Scoring: MP

N      E      S      W

P      1♥ p      p

1♠ 2♥ ?   [/hv]

 

This came up last night at the local club.  The opps were 2 LOLs.  Although my partner's bid did not turn out well it did not seem to me to be obviously wrong.  Would you have done as he did?

 

I will point out that we play that a 1 level overcall in the balance position could be a good 4 card suit and a double is otherwise normal.  l

Interesting hand

 

Few comments

 

1. I would not overcall 2♣ to start with. The suit is far to enemic for a red 2 level overcall.

 

2. I would not advance 3♣ since this would overstate my Spade support

 

3. I'm torn between double and 2NT. They're red at MPs. I have a defensively oriented hand and I suspect that +200 for 2HX is our best score. Partner's 1♠ balance suggests that we can't make game.

 

Mark me down for Double. (Yes, I know this promises better trump, but have you seen the garbage that people bid with these days?)

 

At IMPs, I'd probably bid 2N

[mike777]

Pass

 

Agree 2clubs is out, 3clubs is out, 2s is out....think 2ntx is down 200?

Hope for plus with pass?

[mikeh]

I am not at all sure that I understand the comment regarding 1♠ as opposed to double. Surely if 1♠ is a 4 card suit, it must be a good suit with a weak hand, else why not double? Does double deny 4♠?

 

In any event, those who would overcall 2♣ are nuts.. to be polite. That would be an idiotic overcall and I doubt that one expert in one hundred would even think of it let alone commit it. Ok, so I am not very polite... at least you know how I feel B)

 

I cannot bid 2N for several reasons.

 

I am almost sure to go down even if partner passes. 2N -1 may be an okay, average-minus board, and better than -110. But I may be down 200 or worse, and, when partner has the hand needed to score 8 tricks, he will usually raise to game. Make my hand Qx AJx KJx Q109xx and 2N is both obvious and easy.

 

I cannot double, because that double is PENALTY. It is not 'co-operative': it shows a trump holding such as AJ8x or better.

 

I cannot bid 3♣: what is there about the hand that suggests that partner fits ♣s?

 

So I make the sensible call: I pass.

 

Note that partner is still there. If he has bid 1♠ on some 5233 12 count or so, he can reopen with a double. Admittedly, my problems are not over then, but at least I can make an aggressive call (probably 3♥) comfortable in the knowledge that we own the hand.

 

Picture AKJxx xx Jxx xxx: would/should partner pass 1♥? If not, then think about how any call other than pass is likely to work.

[HeartA]

While I agree with and enjoy most of Mike's posts here, I completely disagree with him this time. I believe that, if not majority, a lot of experts would overcall 2C, with 14 count and reasonable C suit (heading with Q109). I think even Fred would do so. And pass again with 14 count is completely wrong, which puts all the burdens to pd to balance again, who has 10 hcp or so (assuming we have a game, we don't need 26 hcp since almost all of them are known in opener's hand).

[mikeh]

While I agree with and enjoy most of Mike's posts here, I completely disagree with him this time.  I believe that, if not majority, a lot of experts would overcall 2C, with 14 count and reasonable C suit (heading with Q109).  I think even Fred would do so.  And pass again with 14 count is completely wrong, which puts all the burdens to pd to balance again, who has 10 hcp or so (assuming we have a game, we don't need 26 hcp since almost all of them are known in opener's hand).

I wouldn't overcall if you added a random Jack to this 13 count...now, if it were QJ109x of ♣, you're getting warm and I would no longer say that 99% (or more) or experts would pass... but I stick to my guns here, strengthened in my opinion by my recount of the hand :P B)

[whereagles]

Pard's probably short in hearts, and RHO has extra length and entries. This kinda makes 2NT a bit iffy. But I think 2♠ has a fair chance to either make or induce LHO into a bad 3♥. I don't like double, by the way... what if pard bids 3♦ on

 

AKxxx

xx

xxxx

Kx

 

Anyway, I bid 2♠.

 

P.S. a 2♣ overcall has little going for it. That 5 carder seems more like 4 cards to me :P

[pbleighton]

I pass (I would be tempted to bid if the opps weren't vulnerable). My hand seems suited more for defense. Game is unlikely, and if we could make 3 of something we should be able to set them 2.

 

I would bid 2NT with another diamond.

 

Peter

[Free]

I pass: either defeat the contract by at least 2 or wait for partner's takeout double which I'll take out...

[HeartA]

I wouldn't overcall if you added a random Jack to this 13 count...now, if it were QJ109x of ♣, you're getting warm and I would no longer say that 99% (or more) or experts would pass... but I stick to my guns here, strengthened in my opinion by my recount of the hand :P  B)

OK, 13. But that doesn't much difference.

[pclayton]

I don't overcall 2C either. The suit isn't terrible, but the hand's texture sucks, and the honor structure is problematic.

 

I don't want to hang pard for a balance with a double. A-empty 3rd isn't a trump stack at any level (except 7).

 

I totally understand the comment about the balance on the 4 card suit. I'm guessing the original posters pard bid what my choice is: 2S.

 

I can't expect pard to balance a 2nd time when he doesn't know I hold a hand this good. I expect the 5-2 to play fine - even Mike's example of: AKJxx, xx, Jxx, xxx gives me an easy 8 tricks in spades versus a likely 8 in hearts.

[keylime]

I'm never overcalling a five card minor unless it's a good suit, ESPECIALLY with scattered values, porous suit texture, AND at red. -300/-500 looms in my future. I've seen enough "experts" on BBO overcall this trash and get it smacked down brutally - in one team game alone last year I saw this happen three times in 16 boards with each hand doubled in protective seat and swished!

 

Instead I'm passing and when I hear pard balance back in I'm not obligated to double: remember, pard did not bid 2♠ to begin with, showing intermediate values. I have to cater to pard bidding some of my values.

 

I pass. If pard's got a real hand of 9-10+ he/she'll double to protect me.

[mcphee]

I agree about the overcall of 2C, it is not sensible. As a passed hand partner can balance 1NT about 9-11, dble with shortness in H, bid a suit, pass. Partner elected to bid S and missed me, I suspect he could have 4 now and then, mostly then. Double suggests defending, who is that humgry. Bidding pass sure looks like the right action to me.

[Guest Jlall]

Wouldn't dream of a 2C bid...will bid 2S now (in the name of MP). Partner should be able to scrounge up 110 and I don't think we'll beat them 200 (if at all).

[the hog]

I also would not overcall 2C originally. Why should you? The suit is average to poor and you aren't achieviong anything except to leave yourself open to a penalty X.

2S is a possibility now, but pd may well have a 4 card suit only. At this point I pass and see if pd can re open with a X - similar philosophy to Mikeh.

[Guest Jlall]

Picture AKJxx xx Jxx xxx: would/should partner pass 1♥? If not, then think about how any call other than pass is likely to work.

When I saw this hand, I thought you were a 2S bidder :) this is the dream hand for partner if you bid 2S. The opps will lose probably 4 round suit tricks and a heart, or maybe 5 round suit tricks (for 100, or -110), we will make 2S unless spades are 5-1, and partner wouldnt dream of balancing over 2H.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2S.

 

Depending on your opening style in 1st seat,

you can rule out, that game has a reasonable

chance, hence I wont invite partner.

 

Since partner is "weak" I will try to make partners

long suit trumps.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I did not reflect about a 2C overcall, I think Pass

is ok and normal, but 2C may work sometimes, so

either do it or nor, against the actual oppoenents it

may work more often than not.

1S may well be a 4 carder, but than it will be really good

one, ... would not be the first time playing a 4-2 fit on the

2 level. More likely is a garbage 5 carder.

[hatchett]

As to the original problem I agree that the standard meaning of double is penalty but I happen to think and play with some partners that double is competitive and this would be the perfect hand for it.

[Guest Jlall]

I believe that, if not majority, a lot of experts would overcall 2C, with 14 count and reasonable C suit (heading with Q109). I think even Fred would do so.

ill bet 5 bucks on fred not overcalling :)

[whereagles]

I'll raise that to 5000 :)

[flytoox]

I dont like 2C either. Bad suit, bad shape.

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=s107642hqd1064cakj8&w=sa53h875dj9872c75&e=skj8hkj10963da5c63&s=sq9ha42dkq3cq10942]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

The full deal

 

N E S W

p 1♥ p p

1♠ 2♥ dble p

p p

 

My partner doubled which I left in for - 870. I find it difficult in these situations not to be a result merchant, but I think I would have bid 2♠ with partner's hand.

 

Interesting that a "bad" 2♣ overcall would have paid off well.

 

Don't anybody ask why West passed the 1♥ opening.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

You balanced with 1S and 'after' they rebid their suit, partner doubled for 'penalty' and you left it in with the stiff Q of trump 'plus' AKJx in an unbid suit. Perhaps partners double was more than a little shaky if his values produce minus 870 when the opponents 'rebid' suit was still very minimum?

 

2S raise is a really fine idea 'opposite' a passed partner. You might be short a trump(Qx plays for no losers sometimes opposite AKxxx while AKxxx opposite xxx

never plays for zero losers), however, you do have extra values and you do have an idea that a penalty would be unlikely to gain.

 

It is not a really bad idea to pass a ten loser hand opposite a 1H opening with xxx of trumps.

 

I like to play almost all low(and many high) level doubles as value showing.

 

I seem to get more penalties 'showing' values rather than 'got them' partner type doubles. The partner with the shortness doubles and the partner with the trump stack passes. Without a trump stack, you bid higher 'at low levels.'

 

Overcalling bad hands with bad suits at the two level 'sometimes' works and sometimes goes for minus a zillion. Exchange the North and West hands and see how your 2C overcall does. You lose maybe a spade, two hearts, 4 clubs and a diamond. Result merchant?

 

With values North will balance and 'if' the North and West hands were exchanged,

The auction will go p-1H-p(!)-1S-p-2H instead of you overcalling 2Cs and getting hammered vs a partscore. Result merchant?

 

The losses to bad hand/suit overcalls at the two level are not just from

getting whacked. My partners take my 2/1 overcalls fairly seriously and we can compete to good partscores and games 'without' concern about me overcalling a bad hand/suit 2/1 overcall.

 

As an added bonusmy 2/1 overcalls rarely get carried out.

 

Seems the betting line for Fred is that people are betting $5,005 dollars that Fred would not overcall this hand. Playing for coin of the realm or maybe even at IMPs,

bad suit/bad hand 2/1 overcalls might be a losing idea in the long run 'with' some exceptions for the result merchants to point out. I stay fairly close to my bidding methods playing IMPs or MPs. The crazy bids still come out at MPs, but not by my bidding 2/1 overcalls with bad suits and minimum values for a 2/1 overcall.

 

Fred and Jlall play at very high levels of bridge and neither apparently would overcall this hand with 2Cs. Perhaps they have learned something about the value of overcalling poor suits with minimum values at the two level?

 

Regards,

Robert