double then invite?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=w&v=e&s=sjxhaxxxdakxcaqjx]133|100|Scoring: MP

(1♠) P (P) X

(P) 2♥[/hv]

 

 

Hi,

 

I didnt consider this good enough for 4♥ (♠Jx, bad ♥'s) so I made a simple 3♥ raise but that may be undervaluing the hand, is there a better method to use here?

 

Would 2♠ ask for ♠ stop? I dont think its a great hand for NT, just wondering

(ignore this question :rolleyes: )

 

 

tyia

jb

[kenberg]

I would be surprised if anyone thinks you should bid 4H here. It's easy to see a variety of ways that even 3H could go down (losing 2 hearts, 2 spades and a club for example) if partner is broke. A straightforward raise to 3H seems descriptive. Partner can look at his cards and, shouuld he see anything, can reason that you placed him in 3H without the least encouragement from him and then act accordingly. There is always a little guesswork in these things, but 3H says that even though he could not bid 3H over your double there might, and might not, be a game on. That seems to me to be a correct view of your hand, and I don't see how any gadget could make it clearer than just bidding 3H.

[HeartA]

This hand is on the borderline of direct 3H and 2S-then-3H (3.5 H). Since opener is after you, and your H was not great (lack of spots), 3H would be the better choice.

[bid_em_up]

Would 2♠ ask for ♠ stop? I dont think its a great hand for NT, just wondering

I think 2♠ is better served as simply a forcing bid asking partner to describe his hand further. It tends to ask for a spade stop. Partner will show a one if he has it or a second suit, if he is not totally bust. If totally bust, partner should simply bid 3H and your hand should pass.

 

The 2♠ bid also should promise another call from you unless partner bids anything other than bid 3H (you cant pass partner in 2N or 3 of a minor). If he bids 2N, I would have no problem raising to 3N. If he bids 3 of a minor, I would be inclined to bid 3S asking about a partial spade stops such as Qxx or 10xxx (committing to at least 4H, but it may well be wrong to do so).

[HeartA]

While I agree with most Chuck said here, I don't agree the last sentence, "If he bids 3 of a minor, I would be inclined to bid 3S ...". I would bid 3H if responder bid 3m, to show a hand of H support and stronger than a simple 3H raise.

[Guest Jlall]

The problem here is that you are in balancing seat so your ranges are significantly lower and thus partners 2H has a higher range.

 

With say, 16 and 4 hearts, you'd pretty much have to give partner the bump. Since this hand is much stronger than that, you're putting a lot of pressure on partner if you bid 3H with this as well. I would cuebid planning to pass 3H and bid 3H over anything else.

[kenberg]

The problem here is that you are in balancing seat so your ranges are significantly lower and thus partners 2H has a higher range.

 

With say, 16 and 4 hearts, you'd pretty much have to give partner the bump. Since this hand is much stronger than that, you're putting a lot of pressure on partner if you bid 3H with this as well. I would cuebid planning to pass 3H and bid 3H over anything else.

I see the point. Let me ask: I hold the strong hand, you the weak and you hold Kxx of spades, four hearts and not much else. You call 2H over my double I suppose. Over 2S you bid 2NT? And now, when I bid 3H, will you treat it as passable? I considered this but it seemed disaster prone.

 

I have been bringing some of these discussions up with a partner and I want to check back here for accuracy. Generally I follow a rule that if I make a call that suggests partner bid nt with a stopper, and he then bids nt, and then I pull from nt, that's very very strong.

 

Any further thoughts will be appreciated.

 

Ken

[whereagles]

Justin is right, but the hand doesn't seem that great to me. There's a good chance opps cash ♠AK and ♣K from top. I'd stick to 3♥, though not totally happy about it.

[jillybean]

I would cuebid planning to pass 3H and bid 3H over anything else.

Cue bid 2♠?

 

This may be obvious to the experts but I find cue bids have so many variants I need to check when people talk about 'cue bids'. :)

[Guest Jlall]

And now, when I bid 3H, will you treat it as passable?

Yes, I would bid 2N with Kxx of spades over 2S, and I would consider 3H passable. Perhaps this is an inferior agreement for slam bidding, but when the opponents open and you have so many ranges to cover slam bidding has to take a back seat. If you are slamming in hearts you could have splintered earlier, cuebid then bid 4H, etc. I think it's important to have a way to show a strong hand but leave partner an out. Sorry but I don't really have any general rules other than not to worry too much about slams when the opps have opened.

[kenberg]

And now, when I bid 3H, will you treat it as passable?

Yes, I would bid 2N with Kxx of spades over 2S, and I would consider 3H passable. Perhaps this is an inferior agreement for slam bidding, but when the opponents open and you have so many ranges to cover slam bidding has to take a back seat. If you are slamming in hearts you could have splintered earlier, cuebid then bid 4H, etc. I think it's important to have a way to show a strong hand but leave partner an out. Sorry but I don't really have any general rules other than not to worry too much about slams when the opps have opened.

Sounds very practical. I'll discuss it with my partner. I was not thinking so much of slam, but rather a hand where I have more strength than this, enough to force a gamble on game, and maybe with a strong three card heart holding and short spades. The cue bid then the 3H could be: Please choose between 4H and 3N, passing not an option. Probably what you suggest is more useful, since especially in the balance position the possible range of values is, as you say, so large.

 

At any rate, thanks and I will talk it over with my most frequent partner. In general he likes passable sequences and I expect he will like this.

 

Ken

[P_Marlowe]

<snip> Sorry but I don't really have any general rules other than not to worry too much about slams when the opps have opened.

<snip>

... but a really good one.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe