How to bid this one?

[Miron]

[hv=d=n&v=n&w=sa6haj854dakj5cj4&e=skqj2hq10dq3ca10983]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

pass - 1♣ - pass - 1♥

pass - 1♠ - pass - 2♦

pass - 3♣ - pass - ?

 

What now?

1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ is for sure in our system.

2♦ show interest (in order of priority):

• 3♥
  
• 6-5
  
• diamond stopper
  

So partner has 5(6)-4 without 3♥ (edited: and without ♦ stopper).

 

No idea how to bid slam...

[david_c]

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

[Miron]

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

Say 4NT is natural.

The answer of 5♦ (as one).

What now...

[david_c]

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

Say 4NT is natural.

The answer of 5♦ (as one).

What now...

Dammit, that always happens when I bid a natural 4NT.

 

6NT.

[Miron]

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

Say 4NT is natural.

The answer of 5♦ (as one).

What now...

Dammit, that always happens when I bid a natural 4NT.

 

6NT.

Well the 5♦ answer is almost for granted (no more than one ace possible, and less is not probable).

[david_c]

Well the 5♦ answer is almost for granted (no more than one ace possible, and less is not probable).

Sorry, let's start again from the beginning.

 

What is the meaning of 4NT?

 

I said I think it should be natural. That means partner can pass with a minimum, or bid a slam with a better hand. 4NT shows a hand which is too strong for 3NT but not good enough to insist on slam. I think that's what you've got.

 

If you want to agree to show the number of aces in response when you have a maximum then that's fine, but personally I think that's just confusing (why isn't 5♣ natural?) and East should simply bid 6NT.

[pclayton]

An enlightened partnership will play 4N as natural and quantitative.

 

My guess is that responder will try 6♣ or 6N.

[Finch]

I want to go back a round of bidding.

 

What would you rebid after 1C - 1H with

i) A 4234 distribution? (in that order)

ii) A 4324 distribution?

iii) A 4315 distribution?

 

If the answer to all of these is 1S, then david_c's suggested auction is fine:

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2D

3C - 4NT

 

now as opener, I would bid 5H over 4NT as I have pretty much the best heart holding I could have as well as a good hand, and West will raise.

 

6H looks to be the second best slam after 6NT by East which is tougher to get to. I can construct an auction in my methods where I rebid 1NT on a balanced hand and raise hearts on a 4315:

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2D

2H - 3D

3NT - 4NT

6NT

 

2D = FSF

2H = doubleton support, no diamond stop, as 3-card support would either have raised or rebid 1NT

3D = re-4th suit, where are we going

3NT = I've got some sort of diamond stop

4NT = natural

[Miron]

Well the 5♦ answer is almost for granted (no more than one ace possible, and less is not probable).

Sorry, let's start again from the beginning.

 

What is the meaning of 4NT?

 

I said I think it should be natural. That means partner can pass with a minimum, or bid a slam with a better hand. 4NT shows a hand which is too strong for 3NT but not good enough to insist on slam. I think that's what you've got.

 

If you want to agree to show the number of aces in response when you have a maximum then that's fine, but personally I think that's just confusing (why isn't 5♣ natural?) and East should simply bid 6NT.

Sorry, I play BW so often I take it sometimes as natural :rolleyes:

 

And the response... I would say 5NT as "I'm not sure" 14 points is not a maximum. But I have nice points.

 

What would you rebid after 1C - 1H with

i) A 4234 distribution? (in that order)

ii) A 4324 distribution?

iii) A 4315 distribution?

 

We open weak 1NT and we rebid 1NT (as 15-17) with any balanced distribution (even 4 cards in partner suit).

For 12-14: i,ii openned 1NT; iii: 1♠

For 15-17: i,ii 1NT; iii: 1♠

[HeartA]

Well, my first question is, why "3C"? I would bid 3N (or 2N), showing half stopper in D and semi-balance hand. The bidding would go like this:

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2D

3N - 4N

6N/P

[bid_em_up]

Well, my first question is, why "3C"? I would bid 3N (or 2N), showing half stopper in D and semi-balance hand. The bidding would go like this:

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2D

3N - 4N

6N/P

3C appears to be the only valid bid given the scenario outlined. 2♦ appears to be 4SF. Opener does not have 3 hearts, does not have 6 clubs 5 spades, and does not have a full diamond stop....that leaves 3C as the only remaining bid.

 

(If 2♦ was natural, then 2N/3N would be more appropriate.)

[bid_em_up]

An enlightened partnership will play 4N as natural and quantitative.

 

My guess is that responder will try 6♣ or 6N.

Could you elaborate on this, Phil? I think you are implying more than is detailed.

 

(ie, is the "enlightened partnership" also playing Kickback? Redwood? whatever...)

 

There has to be something else involved here, otherwise, 4N is RKC (or just blackwood) for clubs. The only way it is not, is if you have some other ace asking methods available to you.

[Finch]

An enlightened partnership will play 4N as natural and quantitative.

 

My guess is that responder will try 6♣ or 6N.

Could you elaborate on this, Phil? I think you are implying more than is detailed.

 

(ie, is the "enlightened partnership" also playing Kickback? Redwood? whatever...)

 

There has to be something else involved here, otherwise, 4N is RKC (or just blackwood) for clubs. The only way it is not, is if you have some other ace asking methods available to you.

The 'enlightened partnership' plays that 4NT is not BW unless a suit has been agreed. In this particular auction, no suit has been agreed - and, in addition, responder can agree clubs easily by raising 3C to 4C.

[awm]

It's a good general rule that when there is no suit agreement, 4NT is natural. At the very least one should agree that if there is a forcing call which would agree partner's last-bid suit below the level of 4NT, then a direct 4NT is natural. In the given auction, 4♣ clearly agrees clubs and is forcing (we're in a game force after all). So 4NT should be natural. To bid keycard, start with 4♣ and then bid 4NT. This doesn't require playing redwood or kickback or any such nonsense. :rolleyes:

[Finch]

What would you rebid after 1C - 1H with

i) A 4234 distribution? (in that order)

ii) A 4324 distribution?

iii) A 4315 distribution?

 

We open weak 1NT and we rebid 1NT (as 15-17) with any balanced distribution (even 4 cards in partner suit).

For 12-14: i,ii openned 1NT; iii: 1♠

For 15-17: i,ii 1NT; iii: 1♠

The reason I asked is that you might like to have a think about what to bid over 2D FSF.

 

You have already shown 5 clubs and 4 spades by rebidding 1S.

If, in common with many US players, you play that 2D is game forcing, you might find it more efficient to bid 2H on a 4225 with Hx support (and reserve 3H for a 4315, which is rarer). After your 1S bid, partner already knew you had 5 clubs and 4 spades, so bidding 3C over 2D didn't tell him anything new. Being able to show Hx in hearts is new - you could have a heart void - and indeed helpful on this hand.

[HeartA]

3C appears to be the only valid bid given the scenario outlined. 2♦ appears to be 4SF. Opener does not have 3 hearts, does not have 6 clubs 5 spades, and does not have a full diamond stop....that leaves 3C as the only remaining bid.

 

(If 2♦ was natural, then 2N/3N would be more appropriate.)

I don't agree with "3C ... the only valid bid". 3C better show a hand with 6+ C and suit oriented hand (2S would show 6-5, presumably). As Frances pointed out, 1C-1S already shows 5-4 (not always though, could be 4-2-3-4), 2N/3N is more descriptive than 3C, especially given the quacks in red suits.

[bid_em_up]

It's a good general rule that when there is no suit agreement, 4NT is natural. At the very least one should agree that if there is a forcing call which would agree partner's last-bid suit below the level of 4NT, then a direct 4NT is natural. In the given auction, 4♣ clearly agrees clubs and is forcing (we're in a game force after all). So 4NT should be natural. To bid keycard, start with 4♣ and then bid 4NT. This doesn't require playing redwood or kickback or any such nonsense. :P

 

The 'enlightened partnership'  plays that 4NT is not BW unless a suit has been agreed.  In this particular auction, no suit has been agreed - and, in addition, responder can agree clubs easily by raising 3C to 4C.

 

Sorry I asked. :(

[bid_em_up]

3C  appears to be the only valid bid given the scenario outlined. 2♦ appears to be 4SF.  Opener does not have 3 hearts, does not have 6 clubs 5 spades, and does not have a full diamond stop....that leaves 3C as the only remaining bid.

 

(If 2♦ was natural, then 2N/3N would be more appropriate.)

I don't agree with "3C ... the only valid bid". 3C better show a hand with 6+ C and suit oriented hand (2S would show 6-5, presumably). As Frances pointed out, 1C-1S already shows 5-4 (not always though, could be 4-2-3-4), 2N/3N is more descriptive than 3C, especially given the quacks in red suits.

The problem is 2N/3N GUARANTEES a FULL stop in their methods.

 

But do as you wish, and go down in 3N when neither of you have a diamond stop.

 

Btw, what would you bid on 4-2-2-5 with just XX in diamonds?

 

(It cant be 4-2-3-4, as they are playing a weak NT and would have opened 1N on this holding or rebid 1N (15-17) over 1H, if I read his answers correctly).

[HeartA]

The problem is 2N/3N GUARANTEES a FULL stop in their methods.

 

But do as you wish, and go down in 3N when neither of you have a diamond stop.

 

Btw, what would you bid on 4-2-2-5 with just XX in diamonds?

With two small Ds, I could choose 3C or 3H, depending on how my honors are distributed. Besides, from time to time, we bid 1N-3N or 1N-2x-2y-3N without stopper in a suit, and I am OK with it (and I believe you are OK, too). There is no prefect bid for a lot of hands, that is why we have the discussion here. It's about preference, not right or wrong.

[Miron]

OK,

1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ is only forsing (9+)

3♥ reply shows 3♥ and reserve (GF against 9)

2♥ just 3♥ and isn't forsing (against weak 9)

2NT and 3NT shows full diamond stopper (3NT with some reserve)

3♣ is the only possible answer after 2♦ (without lie).

 

After 3♣:

4♦ is kickback and 4NT therefore could be natural. But we never spoke about it (general principle is to have both RKCB and BW if possible, but it was ment for 4 level bidding, not jump to 4NT).

For this case is natural quite good, but I'm not sure if it is good principle (but probably yes).

 

So the right bid after 3♣ was 4NT (as natural).

 

Just one curious question, what if you think that 4NT will be taken as BW (at the table I hadn't thought about 4NT even a second - but if I had I would probably think also about this one). Is there any possibility without natural 4NT?

[bid_em_up]

The problem is 2N/3N  GUARANTEES a FULL stop in their methods.

 

But do as you wish, and go down in 3N when neither of you have a diamond stop.

 

Btw, what would you bid on 4-2-2-5 with just XX in diamonds?

With two small Ds, I could choose 3C or 3H, depending on how my honors are distributed. Besides, from time to time, we bid 1N-3N or 1N-2x-2y-3N without stopper in a suit, and I am OK with it (and I believe you are OK, too). There is no prefect bid for a lot of hands, that is why we have the discussion here. It's about preference, not right or wrong.

Ummm, I am ok with bidding 1N-3N without a stop or 1N-2x-2y-3N without a stop in a side suit. We agree on that. :(

 

I am not ok with making a bid that promises that I have a stop, when I dont actually have one. There is a difference. If I have to choose between the lie about having a 6th club or the lie about having a stop, I believe it better to lie about the (non-existent) 6th club.

 

If you dont, you will likely play in 3N with no stop in the suit that is almost certain to be led, in the other auctions given, they at least have to make the right lead. You also may find yourself in a 6C/7C contract that has no play, because your diamond control has been implied by the NT bid.

 

However, as I said, do as you wish. :)

 

(but you won't get me to agree with it) :P

[mike777]

Can I start with a 14-16 NT please :P

[HeartA]

2NT and 3NT shows full diamond stopper (3NT with some reserve)

3♣ is the only possible answer after 2♦ (without lie).

 

After 3♣:

4♦ is kickback and 4NT therefore could be natural. But we never spoke about it (general principle is to have both RKCB and BW if possible, but it was ment for 4 level bidding, not jump to 4NT).

For this case is natural quite good, but I'm not sure if it is good principle (but probably yes).

 

So the right bid after 3♣ was 4NT (as natural).

 

Just one curious question, what if you think that 4NT will be taken as BW (at the table I hadn't thought about 4NT even a second - but if I had I would probably think also about this one). Is there any possibility without natural 4NT?

If 2N/3N has to show full stopper(s) in you agreement, then 3C is fine. 4NT should be natural without suit agreed.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I play a version of the XYZ convention(modified of course)

 

1C-1H-1S-2D*(game forcing)-2H(without a diamond stop you can bid 2Hs with honor doubleton or three trumps in a minimum balanced hand, I would bid 3Hs here with 4=3=1=5 since I feel that it should normally be worth a jump on the shape alone)

 

I also play Kickback so 4NT would indeed be natural for my methods.

Since a game force would be created by the 2D bid, either partner could stall with a 2NT(which should include a diamond stopper :P

 

I am still slightly puzzled. Does the slam still look good 'if' the club spots are not quite so good(replace the ten or even the 8/9 spot) or replace the heart 10 with a card of 2-9 rank.

 

The slam seems much less likely to make 'if' some of these spot cards are missing. I realize that I bid more with better spots, however, I normally do not count on partner to hold Q10 when he shows an honor doubleton.

 

1C-1H-1S-2D*-2H-2NT(you created a GF with 2D so you can let partner bid out his hand)-3NT-4NT(natural)-5NT(pick a slam)-6NT

 

Since opener does hold all of the good spots, I would bid the slam. Without such an outstanding spotcard collection, I suspect that a pass of 4NT would be my bid. That 10 of hearts really impressed me and the A1098x of clubs would also combine very well with any honor held by partner.

 

The club suit also seems to have a quite attractive spot card holding. Would opener really bid differently in your methods holding say A108xx(A98xx?) in Clubs or Q9 in hearts?

 

You hold near slam HCP values with no 8 card fit and the slam is decent with all of the spot cards present, if either the heart ten or club 10(9 and even the 8 spot?) is missing?

 

I would not mind missing this slam. Opener has full values and really good spot cards. Whether I would bid 4NT holding 18HCP without any good suits or spot cards is somewhat in doubt. I play a 15-17 1NT and would expect opener to accept with 13-14 HCP.

 

Regards,

Robert

[HeartA]

The spot cards are important. Without the spot cards in clubs, we wouldn't be able to afford C lead if HK is offside. Without the spot cards in clubs, we either don't need clubs if opening lead is not club, or we can develop enough tricks without the finesse in hearts if opening lead is club.