club games & players conduct

[keylime]

Hey, free bridge is pretty sweet, Beaner!

 

Is it at the community center right off SkyTrain at the large mall there?

[jillybean]

Oh one other thing, players in this 'intermediate' game often pass UI to their partner by explaining their partners bid before the opps ask for an explanation. Case in point today I held 5♠/5♣, my lho (pass)-pass-(1nt) I bid 2♠ my lho doubles rho pipes up and explains that double is takeout to ♣, lho visibly squirms, my partner politely reminds rho of alert procedures… everyone passes and Im happy defending 3♣. :)

 

Is LHO permitted to try to correct the auction after partner bids 3♣? With or without the UI explanation she knows they have forgotten their agreement.

After the auction she said she thought double just showed values.

(edited to make more sense :) )

 

jb

 

 

Limey - yes I think that is the same place, I will let you know after Saturday!

[Al_U_Card]

You go girl!......btw, a helpful hint. Altho there is limited space on your scorecard (I made up my own with more room for the important stuff and will e-mail you a copy if you like) try noting the bidding sequence and/or your hand shape and/or the opening lead and/or your points and/or the opps (lol's, nice couple, fat bald guy...oops too many of them for that to help :P etc.) These serve as memory aids for later recall as well as forcing you to slow down and concentrate on each hand before you start to play.....good luck

[blackshoe]

Oh one other thing, players in this 'intermediate' game often pass UI to their partner by explaining their partners bid before the opps ask for an explanation. Case in point today I held 5♠/5♣, my lho (pass)-pass-(1nt) I bid 2♠ my lho doubles rho pipes up and explains that double is takeout to ♣, lho visibly squirms, my partner politely reminds rho of alert procedures… everyone passes and Im happy defending 3♣. :)

 

Is LHO permitted to try to correct the auction after partner bids 3♣? With or without the UI explanation she knows they have forgotten their agreement.

After the auction she said she thought double just showed values.

(edited to make more sense :) )

 

jb

 

 

Limey - yes I think that is the same place, I will let you know after Saturday!

In a "social" game, many players get away with all kinds of stuff, because their opponents are reluctant to call the director, thus possibly gaining a reputation for being a "rules lawyer" - or just a jerk. Yet it seems to me that most players who commit such infractions aren't really aware that they are infractions - and will never become aware if no one ever calls the director. In addition, most of them are happy to learn how to do it right (whatever it is). The small fraction of players who are trying to get away with something will get annoyed when you call the TD, but should you really care about them?

 

LHO has UI, not just from the explanation, but also from the alert, that RHO has misunderstood her bid. If that UI demonstrably suggests taking some action over 3♣, and LHO has a logical alternative to that action, then she may not take that action. The only time possession of AI would affect this is when the AI means there's no LA to the action taken.

 

Your RHO also has UI, btw, from LHO's squirming. In this case, though, she never got a chance to use it, so it doesn't matter. B)

[jillybean]

You go girl!......btw, a helpful hint.  Altho there is limited space on your scorecard (I made up my own with more room for the important stuff and will e-mail you a copy if you like) try noting the bidding sequence and/or your hand shape and/or the opening lead and/or your points and/or the opps (lol's, nice couple, fat bald guy...oops too many of them for that to help :)  etc.)  These serve as memory aids for later recall as well as forcing you to slow down and concentrate on each hand before you start to play.....good luck

Thanks for the hand records – when is it acceptable to take notes during a game, after the auction is completed and before my first play so I can record the bidding and lead or should it be left until between hands?

 

jb

[Al_U_Card]

I put it down right away, usually while the opening leader is "guessing" what to do....lol. Whenever you can and the sooner the better as a rule. In the "score" part, since 1/2 of the space is available (you are either above or below the line, I will right in "discussion points" for later such as "C switch" or "att. signal" etc.

[jillybean]

In a "social" game, many players get away with all kinds of stuff, because their opponents are reluctant to call the director, thus possibly gaining a reputation for being a "rules lawyer" - or just a jerk. Yet it seems to me that most players who commit such infractions aren't really aware that they are infractions - and will never become aware if no one ever calls the director. In addition, most of them are happy to learn how to do it right (whatever it is). The small fraction of players who are trying to get away with something will get annoyed when you call the TD, but should you really care about them?

 

LHO has UI, not just from the explanation, but also from the alert,  that RHO has misunderstood her bid. If that UI demonstrably suggests taking some action over 3♣, and LHO has a logical alternative to that action, then she may not take that action. The only time possession of AI would affect this is when the AI means there's no LA to the action taken.

 

Your RHO also has UI, btw, from LHO's squirming. In this case, though, she never got a chance to use it, so it doesn't matter. B)

How do you define a social game? acbl mp's were awarded in this game, like you say I think the players just arent aware of the rules or flout them.

 

Back to the bidding, The correct procedure here would have been for us to reserve our right to call the TD as soon as rho alerted and explained the double. If I had doubled 3♣ its likely neither opp would be able to correct the bid given the UI that had already been passed. I think here Laws 16A and 75D2 prohibits this.

Is it then "fair game" (not a move to win popularity) for me to double, is all information AI for me ? It is AI under 16C1 if the call is withdrawn but Im not sure here where the auction remains?

 

jb

[blackshoe]

You should take your notes after the play is completed. Otherwise, you run afoul of Law 40E2, which prohibits aids to memory.

[sdoty]

when is it acceptable to take notes during a game, after the auction is completed and before my first play  so I can record the bidding and lead or should it be left until between hands?

 

jb

If you're fairly quick about it, it usually isn't a problem to jot down the auction once the bidding is complete and the opening lead has been made. This is when a lot of players write down the contract on their scorecard, and when declarer pauses to think. Just make sure to fold your cc over / close your notebook / etc so that you can't look at what you've written during the play -- not that you ever would, but so that the ops know that you couldn't even if you wanted to.

 

Any notes regarding the play of course have to wait until the hand is completed.

[Al_U_Card]

You should take your notes after the play is completed. Otherwise, you run afoul of Law 40E2, which prohibits aids to memory.

Aids to memory for reference during play. You are allowed to record any information you like as long as you do not refer to it during play.

[blackshoe]

For myself, the act of writing something down helps me to remember it. So I don't write the auction down until after the play. Others may be able to write something down without any effect on their memory, I suppose, but I find it hard to believe.

[awm]

Wait a second, I thought the auction was the property of everyone at the table. Aren't you allowed to ask for a review of the bidding at any time during the play? In this case I can't imagine there being any issue with "memory aids" that help you remember the bidding.

 

In any case, writing something down and then discarding it doesn't serve as a memory aid. Yes the fact that you wrote it down might help you to remember, but then you could also recite the auction to yourself a couple times, or stare for five seconds at the final contract. This would also be a "memory aid" but the restriction is against specifically referring to something during bidding or play, not "doing something before the play starts" to help you remember the bidding.

[blackshoe]

Declarer or either defender may, at his first turn to play a card, require a review of the auction; this right expires when he plays a card.

 

So no, you can't ask for a review at any time during the play. You can ask what the final contract is, and whether it was doubled or redoubled (but not by whom).

 

A player is not entitled, during the auction and play periods, to any aids to his memory, calculation or technique.

 

You can certainly argue that writing down the auction on your score card and then putting it away is not an aid to memory. I'm just saying that for me, because I know it helps me, I don't do it until play is over. I do recite the bids in my mind as they're made, and try to determine what hand types they show, so I suppose I am trying to aid my memory - and it would not occur to me (or to anyone else, I hope) that doing so in that way is illegal. B)

 

You certainly can't, as I once found an opponent doing, write down the auction as it progresses, and then refer to it throughout the auction and play.

[DJNeill]

Hi,

 

There are two players at our club that have a habit of writing down every bid, and the opening lead. They will put their cards down, pick up the special scoresheet that has a long row for the complete auction, write the bids down as they occur, and when it gets back to them, they will put that scoresheet down in their lap, pick up their cards, make the bid, put the cards back down again, pick up the scoresheet out of their lap, and monitor the bidding. Before the opening lead they will not write down the contract, but just wait for the opening lead. Then they write it down, write down the contract, pick up their cards, and play.

 

I don't know why, but this is really annoying. They have done this for years and haven't gotten (as I see it) any better at bidding. One is a psychiatrist so I know it's just a habit with him :-)

 

Dan

[blackshoe]

IMO, you have to be nuts to be a shrink. :lol:

 

Since they seem to be referring to the written record during the auction, I'd rule their habit illegal.

 

OTOH, I'm in favor, using bidding boxes, of leaving the auction visible until asking for a review is no longer an option (i.e., after 3rd hand plays to the first trick). I suppose this could be construed as "aid to memory", but so could the use of bidding boxes (or written bidding) itself. ;)

[Elianna]

Wait a second, I thought the auction was the property of everyone at the table. Aren't you allowed to ask for a review of the bidding at any time during the play? In this case I can't imagine there being any issue with "memory aids" that help you remember the bidding.

You are allowed to ask for a review of the bidding until you play to the first trick. After that, you are only allowed to inquire as to the final contract, and whether it was doubled, but not by who.

 

In any case, writing something down and then discarding it doesn't serve as a memory aid. Yes the fact that you wrote it down might help you to remember, but then you could also recite the auction to yourself a couple times, or stare for five seconds at the final contract. This would also be a "memory aid" but the restriction is against specifically referring to something during bidding or play, not "doing something before the play starts" to help you remember the bidding.

 

Agreed. You are not allowed a physical memory aid. You ARE allowed a mental memory aid. That's why slogans are so popular among beginning bridge players, it helps them remember. But they wouldn't be allowed to bring it to the table in written.

[blackshoe]

I've been asked to expand a bit on the subjects of UI and AI. ;)

 

Players may gain information from a number of different sources. For example, from the calls and plays made on a hand, or from mannerisms or remarks made by an opponent or by partner. Law 16 says that information obtained from the actual calls and plays is authorized to everybody. Information from mannerisms (I would include remarks here as well) is authorized to opponents of the player exhibiting the mannerism or making the comment, but not to his partner. All other information is extraneous. Extraneous information from your partner that may suggest a call or play is not authorized to you. Example "Damn. I should have passed originally." If it doesn't suggest a call or play, it's "authorized" (but you aren't gonna do anything bridge-wise with it, so who cares?) Example: "I'm gonna be a grandmother." If you have unauthorized information from partner, you must make every effort to avoid taking advantage of it. In particular, given a set of logical alternative actions, you may not take one demonstrably suggested over another by UI, even if you have the same information from an authorized source. "I was always going to bid 4♠" is not justification for doing so in the presence of UI. The only justification for doing so is that AI makes the other possible action (e.g., pass) not a logical alternative.

 

Extraneous information from other sources - such as overhearing something from another table, or seeing cards from someone else's hand before the auction starts - is unauthorized if it may affect the result on a board. When you have this kind of information, call the director immediately and let him deal with it.

 

Calls or plays may be withdrawn in the course of dealing with an irregularity. Information from such withdrawn calls or plays is extraneous, but is authorized to the NOS, whether it came from their side or opponents, and unauthorized to the offending side, again whichever side it came from.

 

In the specific case that started this thread, opener bid 2♠, responder tanked (did 2nd seat take the mandatory ten second pause before passing?), an opponent started making comments about the presumed strength of responder's hand, responder finally raised, opener bid game, and opponents started grilling and lesson giving - not in a pleasant manner.

 

The first infraction here was quite possibly 2nd seat's failure to comply with the mandatory 10 second pause after a skip bid (whether or not the skip bid warning was given). If he did comply, the first infraction was the comment about responder's strength. Note that responder's hesitation is not in itself an infraction of law.

 

What UI is there in this case? First, opponent's comment regarding responder's strength is UI to his partner (opponent's, not responder's, partner). Responder's break in tempo (BIT) is not UI, but it may, by inference, convey UI. In particular, opener might infer, as the opponent implied, that responder had a good hand. Note that here we have AI from an opponent's comment, and UI from responder's BIT, that say the same thing. However, opener cannot take advantage of the UI, unless he has no logical alternative. IOW, if pass is an LA, and the information suggests 4♠, the latter is not permitted. The grilling and lesson giving may convey information about the hands; such information is UI to the defense and AI to the declarer - but note that inferences from comments and mannerisms of opponents are at one's own risk, unless an illegal deception was involved.

 

The grilling and lesson giving, indeed the opponents' attitude in general, is a violation of the proprieties which can (should, IMO) result in a penalty.

 

Regarding taking notes, memory aids, and UI: you may not refer to any aids to "memory, calculation, or technique" during the auction and play of a hand, with one specific exception: if SO regulations require an opponent to provide you with a written suggested defense to a call in their system, that defense is in effect considered a part of the opponents' convention card, and you may refer to it at your turn, just as you may refer to their CC. Note that they may not refer to it - it's UI to them. Your CC is UI to you (but you can refer to it between hands). I'm going to ease up, perhaps, on my earlier opinion and say that you can record the auction while the opening lead is being made, but may not refer to it during the play (you can ask for a review if you haven't played to the first trick). You cannot take notes on the auction during the auction, and then refer to them later in the auction or during the play.

 

You are permitted to ask to see all cards of the current trick until you turn yours over. Once you do that, you cannot ask to see the others' again, nor expose your own.

 

I hope I didn't miss anything. :lol:

[JoAnneM]

This is what really gripes me. I am a playing director at a local club. Today two people came up to be and complained about infractions that occurred - after the fact. One was a behavior issue. Well, you know there is not a darn thing I can do if you don't call me to the table at the time. One lady was mad because the opponent pointed to the vulnerability on the board during the bidding. That's a terrible thing to do, but why tell me four hands later during the next round!!!

 

Now, I can go to these people and do a "he said, she said" routine, but why not call me right now? These people need to be called on the carpet while they are doing this stuff. Let us directors do our jobs, then maybe there won't be so many posts about unfriendly games.

 

One bad player can scare as many as 10 players away from a small club. Getting rid of that player only loses one player. Do the math.

[jillybean]

Why wont players to call the TD?

 

From my very brief experience the impression I have is that calling the TD is a very unwelcome thing to do.. At our first tournament one lady would keep on leading out of turn, the mistake was quickly corrected and the play continued – my husband and I sat there a little bewildered. When I suggested we should call the TD our ops quickly said ‘these are the rules, this is what is done’. The next time it happened and I called the TD and the reaction I got from our ops would not encourage anyone to call the TD again.

 

It seems that people who know what they are doing (or atleast think they do) prefer to handle irregularities themselves and not bring attention to the matter. Law9B1 tells us that the Director must be summoned at once when attention is drawn to an irregularity, this is obviously applied at a player’s discretion.

 

jb

[blackshoe]

There is a very experienced player here who used to make his own rulings when things went wrong at the table. This was, BTW, before I became a director. At first I said nothing, but as I became more familiar with the laws, and with the personalities of bridge players :lol: I realized what he was doing - using his perceived status as a player to intimidate lesser players. So the next time he tried it, I told him that it wasn't going to happen his way, and called the TD. Had to do it two or three more times, but he doesn't try that on with me anymore. He didn't like it much, either. Too bad.

 

Law 9B1 is applied at some player's discretion only when the other 3 players at the table let him get away with it. I won't. Not in a tournament, not in a club game. And I will not make rulings myself, even if everyone else at the table asks me to, and I'm sure I know what the ruling should be. When I'm playing, I'm a player, not the TD (well, there may be some times when I'm both, but I try to keep that to a minimum). IMO, it's not a player's job to make rulings at his table, even if he's Rick Beye (and I'm sure Rick doesn't do that) and doing so is unfair to everyone concerned.

 

I had a partner once who exclaimed, in a very hurt tone of voice "why did you call the TD on me?" I hadn't - I called the TD on me because she had given UI and I wasn't sure I had handled it properly. But she didn't (wouldn't?) understand that. ;)

 

Joann: just a suggestion, but.. maybe at the next few games you should make an announcement before the first round that people should call you at the time of an infraction, and that bringing something up after the fact will result in a polite "thanks for the info" and nothing else.

[jillybean]

I hope I didn't miss anything. :(

I dont think so, tyvm :)

[jillybean]

We played the Sat night game at the Vancouver sectional and finished 5th in section B with 45% and another 0.3 MP! :unsure:

I dont really understand this as we should be in Section C with our grand total of about 3MP's.

 

Board8 was one of the bottom boards for us, 6♣ makes, 6N-1 how would you bid it?

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sj10xhaqda95ckq973&s=sakhj985dk106ca842]133|200|1nt:2♣

2♦:4nt

6nt[/hv]

[jillybean]

Board26 I competed to 3♠ here which may have been ok as opps had 5♣ but I misplayed it horribly and went 3♠X-3 for -800 and an absolute bottom board. This was getting towards the end of the game and loosing concentration.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sj109h10xdakxxxckxx&s=s86532hkqxxdqxxc9]133|200|P (p) 1♦ (X)

1♠ (2♣) 2♠ (2something)

3♠ (p) p (x) ap [/hv]

 

-----------------

 

1 incident when we probably should have called the TD, part way through an auction one of our ops picks up her open convention card and places it on her lap, the CC is now in full view below her cards!

I mentioned that she couldnt refer to the CC during bidding and got the expected response, later on I looked over from another table and there she was with her CC still open on her lap.

 

jb

[badderzboy]

Calling the TD is seen as a faux pas by many but it is there to protect BOTH sides.

 

I've called the TD on myself to protect the opps before in a misbid auction my partners alert was correct and his pass correct in the system but I had misbid ( the joys of Modified Ghestem)!

 

The role of the TD is to be fair to everyone and also even if I know the TD ruling in advance for a mistake at my table (I'm a qualified English BU TD) - I would not presume to tells the opps u need to call the TD!

 

It is true some players get away with murder by saying u should do this blah blah blah amazing it would help them everytime lol

 

If I'm going to call the director I tend to say to the opps nothing personal but we need to call the TD just to make sure - leads out of turn, calls out of turn that sort of thing!

 

Steve

[Codo]

We played the Sat night game at the Vancouver sectional and finished 5th in section B with 45% and another 0.3 MP! :unsure:

I dont really understand this as we should be in Section C with our grand total of about 3MP's.

 

Board8 was one of the bottom boards for us, 6♣ makes, 6N-1 how would you bid it?

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sj10xhaqda95ckq973&s=sakhj985dk106ca842]133|200|1nt:2♣

2♦:4nt

6nt[/hv]

One possiblity to avoid 6 NT is NOT to jump to 6 NT but using the space instead to shwo a 5 card suit with 6 ♣ or 6 ♦.

But there are enough reasons to be in 6 NT in a pairs event.

You have 11 tricks and can hope for the Queen of spades doubelton king of Heart singelton or doubelton with West, Ten of Hearts singelton or doubelton or Hearts 3-3. Or that there is a squeeze in some suits. This is more then enough for 6 NT.