Was I wrong?

[bglover]

This AM picked up this beauty:

 

kqxxx

kx

kqjxx

k

 

Partner opens 1S, RHO bids 2h I bid 4n etc. reaching 6S which is cold.

 

After hand, my opp (a good friend and a great player) said to me "You use blackwood too much."

 

Perhaps he was making a joke and I am thick headed, but if ever a hand was made for blackwood this is it... What am I missing?

[Free]

What am I missing?

 

Aces ;D :)

[inquiry]

You are both right.

 

He was right that you use blackwood too much (a general comment). And you are right this is the perfect hand for it.

 

Ben

[keylime]

4Nt is overused to begin with, c'mon....:)

[EricK]

4Nt is overused to begin with, c'mon....:)

 

4NT as Blackwood is overused. 4NT as natural is underused. If you fix the latter problem, the former problem will largely fix itself.

 

Eric

[luke warm]

This AM picked up this beauty:

 

kqxxx

kx

kqjxx

k

 

Partner opens 1S, RHO bids 2h I bid 4n etc. reaching 6S which is cold.

 

After hand, my opp (a good friend and a great player) said to me "You use blackwood too much."

 

Perhaps he was making a joke and I am thick headed, but if ever a hand was made for blackwood this is it... What am I missing?

 

i remember kibbing this hand.. with the way i bid, there's no way i should ever say anything about anyone else's bidding, but i do remember thinking that this hand had several (imho) better bids available.. 3D as a fit non-jump, 4C as a splinter, even 3 or 4H ... i remember thinking "what's the hurry?"

 

on the other hand, 4NT has the advantage of not giving anything away, and it did work out well

[flytoox]

I would say after RHO's 2H, it is nothing wrong to bid 4N, you have all kings. All you want to know is how much aces pd has. Whatever you bid now, you will finally bid 4N, arent you? I agree 4N is abused(not overused), but this hand is just perfect for that.

[bglover]

This replay is to Luke only.

 

While I agree the other bids you mentioned MIGHT have been used ; this hand cares about exactly one thing and one only...How many aces does partner have?

 

If he has 1 the limit is going to be 4 if he has 2 the limit is going to be 5 etc. unless he has a void (which is likely to be in hearts as thats the opponents' suit).

 

Frankly, I cannot fathom why you (or anyone) would choose any bid here BUT the ask. It is impossible to have 2 losers on any sort or "normal" distributions if partner has 3 aces given the bidding.

 

I think my opponent was (a) making a joke regarding this hand and (:) making an observation as Ben pointed out.

[inquiry]

Frankly, I cannot fathom why you (or anyone) would choose any bid here BUT the ask. It is impossible to have 2 losers on any sort or "normal" distributions if partner has 3 aces given the bidding.

 

 

There is one very good reason to consider another bid besides 4NT. Look at your hand again...

 

KQxxx

Kx

KQJxx

K

 

You didn't say what the vulnerability was nor the type of game, nor the state of the match. But you have a monster (17 hcp), and two people have made natural bids before you get a chance, and someone is sitting on a lot of clubs. Your RHO didn't preempt in hearts, nor make a two suited overcall. There is at least a possibility that your partner psyched a first seat 1S opening bid holding a hand with a bunch of clubs and not many hcp.

 

A conservative person who want to allow for the psyche might bid a forcing 3D (or if you play it a fit jump 4D). If partner passes that, well, ok, the cat is out of the bag. If partner bids on, pull out blackwood.

 

Now if we are vul and they are not, I would suspect partner did not psyche. If both are vul, or neither vul, it is a little more likely partner made first seat psyhce, but if they are vul and we are not, I my psyche antenna would be up. So in that one case, I would try a forcing 3D before bidding 4NT.

 

Ben

[bglover]

I have a general rule regarding psyches... Shoot partner if he psyches in 1st seat... Good rule to follow trust me.

[inquiry]

I have a general rule regarding psyches... Shoot partner if he psyches in 1st seat... Good rule to follow trust me.

 

Well, your comment was you couldn't fathom why anyone would consider anything other than 4NT. I gave you something to think about. BTW, your remedy is way to harsh... some of the best psyches are first seat ones simply because they are so rare. Some people claim there is a BBO rule against First and Second Seat psyches, but in fact, no such rule exist. Misho claims first seat psyches is "gambling" and he is not for such bids.

 

Consider a late in a match and you need a swing (state of match comment I made), consider them vul and you not vul, and you hold....

 

S-xxx

H-void

D-xx

C-QJxxxxx

 

Sometimes, the URGE just strikes you. Now, a first seat vulnerable psyche is probably very, very rare. But to say no first seat psyches is, in itself, a kind of psyche control.

 

Third seat psyches are so common with weak hands, especiallly not vul, thread here call it "clown seat". They are usually easy picked up by everyone, as you look for those just fooling bids. So 3rd seat psyches are not always so useful (of course, when not a psyche, you sometimes can get rich if both opponents take you for psyche). Other psyches are also not so useful.. Say you are vul, they are not, and the bidding goes...

 

1H-P-1S- to you and you hold

 

S-AKJTxx

H-void

D-Axxx

C-KQT

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the odds are VERY good RHO has heart fit and spade shortness. His 1S bid meant to throw us off of the spade suit (which we would find if he raised hearts preemptively or naturally). Give RHO something like...

 

S-x

H-Qxxxx

D-xx

C-xxxx

 

I think this is right so much, I use 2S on (1any)-P-(1S)-2S as natural, showing spades. Now, if your opponents NEVER psyche 1S on this auction, there is a lot more useful bids you can assign to 2S (wouldn't bridge be so much easier if opponents never psyched).

 

Ben

[EricK]

 

I think this is right so much, I use 2S on (1any)-P-(1S)-2S as natural, showing spades. Now, if your opponents NEVER psyche 1S on this auction, there is a lot more useful bids you can assign to 2S (wouldn't bridge be so much easier if opponents never psyched).

 

Ben

 

A thought occurred to me "out of the blue" the other day.

 

Is there much use for a take out double after (1H) P (1S)?

 

If their bidding is above board, then you are probably outgunned in points, and they have the major suits, so you are unlikely to be able to outbid them (obviously you sometimes will be able to outbid them, but the times you give away information about the location of the outstanding points may more than offset these times).

 

However, if RHO is psyching, then you may need to get your spades into the auction. Doubling to show spades would do this much more safely than bidding 2S - you could even do it on a very strong 4 card suit.

 

What do you think?

 

Eric

[the hog]

Not a bad option EricK. You can always use 1N as a takeout for the other two suits.

[luke warm]

This replay is to Luke only.

 

While I agree the other bids you mentioned MIGHT have been used ; this hand cares about exactly one thing and one only...How many aces does partner have?

 

If he has 1 the limit is going to be 4 if he has 2 the limit is going to be 5 etc. unless he has a void (which is likely to be in hearts as thats the opponents' suit).

 

Frankly, I cannot fathom why you (or anyone) would choose any bid here BUT the ask. It is impossible to have 2 losers on any sort or "normal" distributions if partner has 3 aces given the bidding.

 

I think my opponent was (a) making a joke regarding this hand and (:) making an observation as Ben pointed out.

 

i sure wasn't criticizing 4nt, steve... if it came across that way, my apologies... this is why you're a better card player than i... i simply would not have chosen 4nt, that's all... i'm not saying any of the bids i mentioned are better than 4nt (objectively speaking)... it's all a matter of judgement, and overall mine isn't as good as yours... 4nt is just not a bid i would have made at that time, that's all...

[inquiry]

A thought occurred to me "out of the blue" the other day.

 

Is there much use for a take out double after (1H) P (1S)?

 

If their bidding is above board, then you are probably outgunned in points, and they have the major suits, so you are unlikely to be able to outbid them (obviously you sometimes will be able to outbid them, but the times you give away information about the location of the outstanding points may more than offset these times).

 

However, if RHO is psyching, then you may need to get your spades into the auction. Doubling to show spades would do this much more safely than bidding 2S - you could even do it on a very strong 4 card suit.

 

What do you think?

 

Hi Eric,

 

This is certainly a good idea and would handle most hands where RHO psyches a 1S out of the blue, using sandwich NT for takeout. I however, have a different agreement written into my system notes. I play RAPTOR 1NT, and on this specific auction, (1H)-Pass-(1S)-1NT to show 4+S and a longer minor (usually 4S). This way, dbl stays for minors and 2S is when RHO is jerking around and I am holding lots of good spades.

 

Of course, if you don't typically play raptor 1NT this solution will not be for you.

 

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

4Nt is overused to begin with, c'mon....;)

 

4NT as Blackwood is overused. 4NT as natural is underused. If you fix the latter problem, the former problem will largely fix itself.

 

Eric

I use 4 NT as a way bid, if I bid it directly after pd opens it is plain old fashioned Blackwood. If I go slow and support trump, and then bid 4 NT it is RKC :)

Nice and simple, works magic too.

 

Mike ;D

[EricK]

4Nt is overused to begin with, c'mon....;)

 

4NT as Blackwood is overused. 4NT as natural is underused. If you fix the latter problem, the former problem will largely fix itself.

 

Eric

I use 4 NT as a way bid, if I bid it directly after pd opens it is plain old fashioned Blackwood. If I go slow and support trump, and then bid 4 NT it is RKC :)

Nice and simple, works magic too.

 

Mike ;D

 

So what are these 4NT bids?

 

1H 1S

2D 4NT

 

1S 2C

2D 4NT

 

1C 1S

2C 4NT

 

Eric

[Trpltrbl]

4Nt is overused to begin with, c'mon....:)

 

4NT as Blackwood is overused. 4NT as natural is underused. If you fix the latter problem, the former problem will largely fix itself.

 

Eric

I use 4 NT as a way bid, if I bid it directly after pd opens it is plain old fashioned Blackwood. If I go slow and support trump, and then bid 4 NT it is RKC :)

Nice and simple, works magic too.

 

Mike ;D

 

So what are these 4NT bids?

 

1H 1S

2D 4NT

 

1S 2C

2D 4NT

 

1C 1S

2C 4NT

 

Eric

Hi Eric, since I play minorwood, bidding the minor at 4 level as RKC for that minor all these 4 NT bids are just plain old Blackwood. Like I said simple ;)

 

Mike ;D

[inquiry]

So what are these 4NT bids?

 

1H 1S

2D 4NT

 

I play 2/1 GF, but here over 2D I am not in game forcing situation. So 3D, 4D neither is forcing (or minorwood). But the choice between RKCB, normal blackwood, and quantatative still have to be worked out. On this hand, I would bid fourth suit forcing, followed by diamond raise (generally to 4D) for minorwood, so RKCB is out. I would bid fourth suit forcing followed by a leap to 4NT as quantatative (since partner might, after all bid 3NT over 3C and 4NT would "sound" invitational anyway). So this leap to 4NT here is plain old blackwood.

 

1S 2C

2D 4NT

 

Here I am a) already game force, and ;) have a bid of 4D available as roman key card blackwood (minorwood). So 4NT is not RKCB. Also, I have a forcing 2NT followed by an invintational 4NT, so it is not quantatative. There is also possible uses of 4H as exclusion blackwood or normal splinter with diamond support (depending upon your partnership agreement). IF you want RKCB in spades, bid 3S now (forcing) then 4NT. The only thing this 4NT can be is normal blackwood.

 

1C 1S

2C 4NT

 

Once again you are not game forced, and 2NT is not forcing. I play NMF (new minor forcing), so as responder my choices included 2D followed by 4C (minorwood), and 2D followed by 4NT or the immediate 4NT as here. So once again, this 4NT is plain blackwood, and 2D followed by 4NT would be invintational.

[EricK]

So what are these 4NT bids?

 

1H 1S

2D 4NT

 

I play 2/1 GF, but here over 2D I am not in game forcing situation. So 3D, 4D neither is forcing (or minorwood). But the choice between RKCB, normal blackwood, and quantatative still have to be worked out. On this hand, I would bid fourth suit forcing, followed by diamond raise (generally to 4D) for minorwood, so RKCB is out. I would bid fourth suit forcing followed by a leap to 4NT as quantatative (since partner might, after all bid 3NT over 3C and 4NT would "sound" invitational anyway). So this leap to 4NT here is plain old blackwood.

 

1S 2C

2D 4NT

 

Here I am a) already game force, and ;) have a bid of 4D available as roman key card blackwood (minorwood). So 4NT is not RKCB. Also, I have a forcing 2NT followed by an invintational 4NT, so it is not quantatative. There is also possible uses of 4H as exclusion blackwood or normal splinter with diamond support (depending upon your partnership agreement). IF you want RKCB in spades, bid 3S now (forcing) then 4NT. The only thing this 4NT can be is normal blackwood.

 

1C 1S

2C 4NT

 

Once again you are not game forced, and 2NT is not forcing. I play NMF (new minor forcing), so as responder my choices included 2D followed by 4C (minorwood), and 2D followed by 4NT or the immediate 4NT as here. So once again, this 4NT is plain blackwood, and 2D followed by 4NT would be invintational.

 

The trouble with FSF followed by 4NT, or NMF followed by 4NT is that partner may show delayed support for your suit. Then he is bound to take 4NT as some flavour of Blackwood. Which is why I would play the immediate 4NT as quantitative on the first and last of these sequences.

 

Playing 2/1, you are right that you don't need an immediate quantitative 4NT in the second example. But playing slightly weaker 2/1s, I suggest that quantitative is again the best meaning for this jump to 4NT.

 

Eric

[inquiry]

The trouble with FSF followed by 4NT, or NMF followed by 4NT is that partner may show delayed support for your suit. Then he is bound to take 4NT as some flavour of Blackwood. Which is why I would play the immediate 4NT as quantitative on the first and last of these sequences.

 

Playing 2/1, you are right that you don't need an immediate quantitative 4NT in the second example. But playing slightly weaker 2/1s, I suggest that quantitative is again the best meaning for this jump to 4NT.

 

Eric

 

Hi Eric,

 

This really is a matter or partnership agreement, and I have no problem with immediate jumps to 4NT as quantatitive. But you don’t necessary need 4NT as quantitative if partner shows delayed support for your suit. Let’s look at two auctions.

 

1C 1S 1C 1S

2C 2D 2C 2D

2S 3S

 

Here your partner has separated his “good” 2C rebids from his “weaker” 2C rebids with a jump to 3S or a simple 2S rebid. This sort of takes the need for quantitative 4NT on these auctions away. You can bid a simple 3NT on the first auction, and 6NT on the second. The question that might become worth thinking about is what would 5NT be on the second auction (invite 7NT or ask for quality of spade support for 7S, or pick a slam between 6C and 6S), but we can leave that for another thread.

 

The same kind of good/bad responses are frequently part of the responses to fourth suit forcing. But, and this is important, after fsf or nmf you have time to temporize before bidding 4NT as blackwood, so you can use immediate 4NT after fsf or nmf as quantitative even if partner supports your suit if you want... that is, you can just define the nmf-any-4NT as quantitative, or fsf-any-4NT as the same. This is how I play it, again, by partnership agreement.

 

1C 1S

2C 2D

2S 4NT = quantitative,

 

1C 1S

2C 2D

2S 3H (or 3C or 3D but not 3S)

any 4NT = rkcb… for spades or if 3C bid, two suit rkcb

 

The secret is to have an agreement, or to at least be on teh same bridge logic as your partner. Generally, I use quantative after a NT bid/rebid, or immediately after a nmf or 4sf.

 

Ben

[EricK]

 

This really is a matter or partnership agreement

 

Ben

 

This is true. And if you have lots of constructive bidding agreements, you can often get away without needing a quantitative 4NT bid. I am not so sure the same applies to simpler systems.

 

One of the things which annoys me about online bridge is that the default assumption for undiscussed 4NT bids seems to be Blackwood.

 

How did this happen?

 

I thought the general rule for undiscussed bids was "If it could be natural, then it is". This seems to apply to everything except 4NT.

 

Eric

[bglover]

I have a simple rule I follow about 4nt.... Over any NT bid its quantitative and over a suit its RKC. I think that treatment is pretty common in undiscussed partnerships and would venture that's why you sometimes get the response you aren't expecting from your partners.

[inquiry]

I agree with Steve's "general rule" for 4NT with an "unknown partner" on line. Over a NT opening bid, I treat it as natural, over others it is blackwood or roman keycard blackwood.

[EricK]

I agree with Steve's "general rule" for 4NT with an "unknown partner" on line. Over NT bid, I treat it as natural, over others it is blackwood or roman keycard blackwood.

 

It's what I (have been forced to) do too.

 

My question remains "How did this situation arise?"

 

A more sensible rule would be "If a suit has been explicitly supported then 4NT is Blackwood, else it is natural". I would even prefer to restrict it to major suits, if not playing some sort of Minorwood.

 

Eric