Lady Milne Problem (Part 1)

[Walddk]

I agree with 3♠. Now ....

 

1♥ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

3♠

 

Consider the following 3 bids from responder:

 

4♥

4♠

5♠

 

Would you move over 4♥ and/or 4♠? And how would you interpret 5♠?

 

---

 

Let's turn our attention to the 2♦ rebidders (I am one of those I confess).

 

1♥ - 1♠

2♦ - 3♥

?

 

What is 3♠, and if natural, would you prefer 4♣, or even 5♣?

 

Roland

[Finch]

There's something inconsistent between your two auctions.

 

In the second auction, after the 2D rebid, responder has invitational 3H bid with 3-card support.

 

In the first auction, responder has 3-card heart support, invitational values and is opposite a 3541 (roughly) powerhouse, but bids 4H over 3S, which could be done on as little as Qxxx xx Kxx Jxxx?

 

I don't believe you are giving the same hand opposite in the two auctions!

[Walddk]

I don't believe you are giving the same hand opposite in the two auctions!

I am indeed, because I suspect that some would bid 4♥ over 3♠. I am not saying I agree with 4♥ (no reason to reveal responder's hand just yet), but I would like to hear what your approach is over

 

4♥ or

4♠ or

5♠

 

Roland

[david_c]

It seems very important to know what 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 4♥ means. I feel this ought to be a picture jump, and in this sequence the implication is that responder holds a hand too strong to raise directly to 2♥ on the first round. IIRC the actual hand held by responder is absolutely perfect for this bid.

[Finch]

I am secure in the knowledge that partner will bid 4C with or without a control in clubs to show slam interest if she has good major suit cards and no minor suit control (I've already promised at least second round control with the patterning out).

 

I've given what I would consider a could be in a 4H bid - as game is poor opposite that, we can give partner quite a few more high cards before we want to be any higher, so it's clear to pass 4H.

 

4S sounds as if partner is suggesting playing in a 4-3 fit. With 5 spades and 2 hearts partner would have bid 3S over 3D. 4S is not showing any slam interest... it's tempting to bid over it anyway, because partner's spades should be fairly robust but I shall make a disciplined pass. The way I have bid so far, partner cannot possibly have the KQJ of spades and the either red suit King (the HK is too big a card; the DK I'm sure he would have cue bid). She needs all 3 spade honours to want to play in a 4-3 fit in slam.

 

5S still sounds like a 4-3 fit, but now I'm more interested. I know partner doesn't have the DK. She obviously didn't fancy a random-slam-try 4C, but must have something more than just good spades, so I reckon the only possible card is the HK which she didn't want to cue because I can pass it.

 

KQJx

Kx

xxxx

xxxx

 

is enough for slam.

 

I think I am just good enough to bid 6C, but it's close.

[Finch]

It seems very important to know what 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 4♥ means. I feel this ought to be a picture jump, and in this sequence the implication is that responder holds a hand too strong to raise directly to 2♥ on the first round. IIRC the actual hand held by responder is absolutely perfect for this bid.

The problem is that we may be in a 4-card major world (depending on the pair) wehre partner would tend to respond 1S on hands where Americanites would make a construtive 3-card raise.

[Walddk]

It seems very important to know what 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 4♥ means.

I assume that 4♥ over 3♦ would show a desire to let opener declare 4♥ if she has roughly 19-21 with 5 hearts and 4 diamonds. But how would I know? I am not eligible to play in the Lady Milne :D

 

Roland

[mike777]

If your rebid is 3♦, you will see this:

 

1♥ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

?

 

3♥ can be a variety of hands with 2 or 3 hearts. If 3, probably not a minimum (else 4♥). How do you proceed from there?

 

(You may have a feeling that the 2♦ rebidders are in a better position, but try to ignore that).

 

Roland

1) 3D, I could have so much less, (8hcp) for bidding 2d that with my spade support I must jump to 3D to show this hand. Typical problem when opening on junk.

2) 4c. 3s here would be natural and forcing, game before slam. I am not going to pattern out. I love to pattern out as much as anyone but we got our major suit fit and I need to set trumps and start cuebidding. If I bid 3s and partner bids 4c or 4d I will be unsure what are trumps and how to kickback.

 

I hate to cue shortness before length but if I bid 4D here partner may think I am just bidding out long D and not agreeing hearts. Over partner's 4H rebid I plan on bidding 4nt(spade cuebid) this will warn partner I got a void somewhere(spades or clubs) because of lack of 4s rkc kickback bid. Tough hand and I may get too high or miss slam.

[pclayton]

I agree with 3♠. Now ....

 

1♥ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

3♠

 

Consider the following 3 bids from responder:

 

4♥

4♠

5♠

 

Would you move over 4♥ and/or 4♠? And how would you interpret 5♠?

 

---

 

Let's turn our attention to the 2♦ rebidders (I am one of those I confess).

 

1♥ - 1♠

2♦ - 3♥

?

 

What is 3♠, and if natural, would you prefer 4♣, or even 5♣?

 

Roland

A. (After 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠):

 

4♥ says: I didn't have a forced preference at 3♥. I have real heart support, but I had a reason to bid 1♠ instead of 2♥ directly, because I have at least invitational values. Perhaps I didn't want to risk a cue bid (over 3♠) because I was concerned about setting trump. Kxxx, Kxx, xxx, Axx looks right.

 

4♠ says: My spades weren't good enough to rebid over 3♦, and I was taking a forced preference over 3♦. Now that we've found our fit, I'm not interested in anything higher. KTxxx, xx, xxx, Axx.

 

5♠ says: I have some useful cards, but I want tell you about my hand, instead of taking control. The message is that I have a heart card, and I have good spades, but I can't insist on slam for whatever reason. KQJxx, Kx, xxx, xxx.

 

I have a side question: After the above auction, what are 4♣ and 4♦? Are they ambiguous, or do they set trump in a certain strain?

 

B. (After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♥):

 

3♠ is just a cue bid. We have our trump fit, and there's no need this high to start hunting for an alternative strain. It is clearly a slam try, and pard needs to cooperate and show a card. It is my choice.

 

4♣ is a cue. Since I've patterned out, this should be a void or the stiff A.

 

5♣ is EKCB. I don't think this hand is good for bashing. We need tricks, not controls!

[mike777]

. (After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♥):

 

"3♠ is just a cue bid. We have our trump fit, and there's no need this high to start hunting for an alternative strain. It is clearly a slam try, and pard needs to cooperate and show a card. It is my choice."

 

 

As we see 3s here can be confusing...many play it as natural, others as cuebid for hearts.....:D

[mikeh]

After being in complete agreement with Frances through 3♠, I now find myself in slight disagreement. I do not think that partner's 3♥ preference denied 5♠. With KJxxx Kx xxx Jxx, for example, 3♥ is 100% clear over 3♦.

 

So I take the 4♠ bid as probably 5 cards.

 

In any event, I agree that 4♠ is to play, as is 4♥.

 

Especially in 4 card major land, responder may have 3♥ with an indifferent hand. In 5 card major land, the sequence of 1♠ then raising ♥ should show 5=3 with constructive values, but even so, bidding over 4♥ is an insult to partner.

 

5♠ would for me be a strong slam move, but the problem is to work out the kind of information partner is looking for. I have shown an apparent 3=5=4=1, although I have not denied my actual shape. Partner could have keycarded or have cue-bid: however, maybe partner was unwilling to risk 4♣ without the ♣A and 4♦ would be potentially ambiguous.

 

I am passing 5♠...I would have bid the same way to this stage with AQx AQJxxx AQxx void... so it is not as if I am heavy for my auction: see how many chose 2♦ rather than 3♦.

[Walddk]

5♠ says: I have some useful cards, but I want tell you about my hand, instead of taking control. The message is that I have a heart card, and I have good spades, but I can't insist on slam for whatever reason. KQJxx, Kx, xxx, xxx.

Interesting. You are one card (well, maybe 1½) away from what responder actually held!

 

Roland

[mike777]

5♠ says: I have some useful cards, but I want tell you about my hand, instead of taking control. The message is that I have a heart card, and I have good spades, but I can't insist on slam for whatever reason. KQJxx, Kx, xxx, xxx.

Interesting. You are one card (well, maybe 1½) away from what responder actually held!

 

Roland

With that hand should partner rebid 3s over 3d? Ok, if not how poor can partner's 3s rebid be with only 2H after our jump to 3D?

[Walddk]

5♠ says: I have some useful cards, but I want tell you about my hand, instead of taking control. The message is that I have a heart card, and I have good spades, but I can't insist on slam for whatever reason. KQJxx, Kx, xxx, xxx.

Interesting. You are one card (well, maybe 1½) away from what responder actually held!

 

Roland

With that hand should partner rebid 3s over 3d? Ok, if not how poor can partner's 3s rebid be with only 2H after our jump to 3D?

Responder was 5-3 in the majors.

 

Roland

[Walddk]

Time to show the 2 hands I suppose:

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj103hk104d86c753&s=sa85haqj863daq94c]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I don't think many would reach top spot: 7♠ (by the way, 7♥ was also on because the diamond finesse worked). However, I wasn't too impressed with the two auctions I saw:

 

1♥ - 2♥

4♥ - pass

 

**

 

1♥ - 1♠

3♥ - 4♥

4♠ - 5♥

pass

 

In my view, the worst bid of them all was opener's 3♥ rebid at Table 2. Besides, 4♠ doesn't exist after you have bid a non-forcing 3♥. How on earth did she expect partner to figure out why and how she had misbid the hand?

 

Roland

[mike777]

Time to show the 2 hands I suppose:

 

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ103 ♥ K104 ♦ 86 ♣ 753 ♠ A85 ♥ AQJ863 ♦ AQ94 ♣ [space]

 

I don't think many would reach top spot: 7♠ (by the way, 7♥ was also on because the diamond finesse worked). However, I wasn't too impressed with the two auctions I saw:

 

1♥ - 2♥

4♥ - pass

 

**

 

1♥ - 1♠

3♥ - 4♥

4♠ - 5♥

pass

 

In my view, the worst bid of them all was opener's 3♥ rebid at Table 2. Besides, 4♠ doesn't exist after you have made a non-forcing 3♥ rebid. How on earth did she expect partner to figure out why and how she had misbid the hand?

 

Roland

Well with that hand partner would have to bid 4nt(spade cue) over my 4c cuebid.

 

1h=1s

3d=3h

4c=4nt(spade cuebid)

 

Should at least reach 6.

?

[Finch]

After being in complete agreement with Frances through 3♠, I now find myself in slight disagreement. I do not think that partner's 3♥ preference denied 5♠. With KJxxx Kx xxx Jxx, for example, 3♥ is 100% clear over 3♦.

OK, that´s a 3H bid.

But I would certainly bid 3S rather than 3H on KJxxx xx in the majors.

[Finch]

Time to show the 2 hands I suppose:

 

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ103 ♥ K104 ♦ 86 ♣ 753 ♠ A85 ♥ AQJ863 ♦ AQ94 ♣ [space]

I can obviously invent a successful auction to 7S seeing both hands, although I do not think it entirely trivial at the table.

 

But after our start to the auction 1H - 1S - 3D - 3H - 3S North has the values for slam, not a non-forcing 4H, 4S or 5S bid. What does she think a game forcing 3541 looks like?

 

Axx

AQxxx

AKxx

x

 

is not really enouhg for a 3D bid (although close) and 6 of either major is trivial.

[Walddk]

I don't know the auction or results at the other two tables, but I think it's poor judgement, probably in combination with an inadequate system, to play this laydown grand slam in game.

 

They had all the room in the world (no interference). And mind you, we are not talking about random intermediates, but top class international players from a country that won the bronze medal at the European Championships a few months ago.

 

I am not claiming that the cold 7♠ is easy to bid, but at this level it should be trivial to get to 6.

 

Roland

[cherdano]

I can obviously invent a successful auction to 7S seeing both hands, although I do not think it entirely trivial at the table. 

 

But after our start to the auction 1H - 1S - 3D - 3H - 3S North has the values for slam, not a non-forcing 4H, 4S or 5S bid.  What does she think a game forcing 3541 looks like?

 

Axx

AQxxx

AKxx

x

 

is not really enouhg for a 3D bid (although close) and 6 of either major is trivial.

Yeah, the point of bidding 3D and then bidding out the shape was to put partner in a position to make the slam decision. Bidding on over 4H would be a clear insult to partner, he could have Qxxx Kxx Jx KQxxx. Similar over 4S. Only over 5S it is close.

 

Actually I am not sure what 5S should show. The actual hand is of course a slam force, and Phil's hand is also a too good I think. I can only make sense of it if it is asking for good trumps (T9xxx Kx Kxx Axx). I would bid 6H over 5S.

 

Anyway, let's agree that if we miss slam after starting with 3D, we can blame partner (i.e. Roland) :D

[david_c]

It seems very important to know what 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 4♥ means.

I assume that 4♥ over 3♦ would show a desire to let opener declare 4♥ if she has roughly 19-21 with 5 hearts and 4 diamonds. But how would I know? I am not eligible to play in the Lady Milne :D

I don't believe in "fast arrival". With a minimum hand that wanted to play in hearts I would wait with 3♥ and then correct partner's next bid to 4♥. For me a jump to game tends to show extras. Terribly old-fashioned perhaps, but I don't find it very easy to show these extras in any other way. (The natural jump to game denies the ability to make a cue-bid.)

 

Two copies of me would bid this hand

 

1♥[1] - 1NT[2] - 3♦[3] - 4♥[4] - 7♠[5]

 

[1]5+ hearts

[2]5+ spades

[3]This feels a bit uncomfortable at this point, but I don't have system to show 3-card support and a void.

[4]Picture bid: non-minimum (so must be a hand too good to respond 2♥) with values concentrated in the majors, no club control, shouldn't have an honour in diamonds.

[5]Partner must have at least ♠KQxxx ♥Kxx for his bidding. I don't have the methods to ask for the ♠J (or a sixth spade), but even without it the grand slam is decent (needs trumps to split and hearts not 4-0).

 

I haven't made this up, honestly! The first four bids are automatic and I can't see any way to stop below 7♠ after that start.

[mike777]

ok why cannot partner have other good, noncuebid hands for your 4h picture bid?

I doubt picture bids are this specific but then I do not play them.

[david_c]

ok why cannot partner have other good, noncuebid hands for your 4h picture bid?

Well, OK, I suppose ♠KJTxx ♥Kxx ♦xx ♣QJx is good enough, so I should ask for the ♠Q before bidding a grand slam if the methods are available to do that. That's about the worst hand partner can have though: there aren't very many points missing in the majors and partner is promising most of them. It would be very pessimistic to settle for 6♥/6♠. You've got to at least invite a grand, and on the actual hand responder will surely accept with such good trumps.

[kenrexford]

This is such a screwed up post by now, and I am extremely confused. Every permutation of auctions and theories imaginable seem to have reared up here.

 

So, I'll add only two more. LOL

 

First, this may be why one should raise with support. A simple constructive 1♥-P-2♥ allows Opener to start obvious cuebidding (not obvious as to purpose) with a 2♠ call, in my personal methods (spade value). In my preferred approach, Responder now bids 3♠, accepting the game try and suggesting spades as an alternative strain. This also, by my personal definitions, shows three covers inside the two suits (or more). 4♣ asks for more info. But, the 3♠ call allows Opener to visualize a very strong possibility of slam.

 

I'm sure that many folks use personal preferences themselves that would make a 1♥-P-2♥ auction work.

 

That being said, I understand the problem of bidding 2♥. A spade focus might be very important, and the playing strength is tweener and spade-fit-dependent.

 

After 1♠, I still maintain adherence to the 2♦ school here, as I feel that, especially at IMP's, courtesy corrections and the like allow auctions on these hands that make more sense if done slowly. I also agree that 2♠ after a courtesy correction shows near-reverse values. With less, I'd just raise spades directly and get that off my chest.

 

After 2♦, I agree that 3♥ makes sense. Now, hearts are agreed. Period. 3♠ is a cue. Period. This is a flawed bid, however, because the fit-dependent spade issue has far from been resolved (and is actually more stressed now). But, you boxed yourself in by not raising immediately.

 

The discussion on this alternative could go on and on. A moral can easily be gleaned:

 

Raise with support, if you can. The rest should work itself out if you have good techniques. If not, get good techniques -- a raise with support should not cause a train wreck.

[jikl]

Dare I mention FSJ?

 

Sean