Reverse: forcing over non-forcing NT?

[elwood913]

HI..my first post.

Playing std am, non-forcing NT.

Opponents pass throughout.

 

Is a reverse bid by opener always forcing? Even over a 1NT reply?

 

If so, is a new suit bid by responder forcing e.g. 1♦-1NT-2♠-3♣?

 

Does the following auction make any sense: 1♦-1NT-2♠? with a 5-4 in diamonds and spades--that is, why bid a 4-card spade suit when responder can't possibly have 4 spades?

 

Here's the hand I'm considering, how would you bid it?

 

dealer:

♠A972

♥K

♦AKQ95

♣J92

 

♠853

♥J97

♦62

♣KQ764

 

If the answer is for opener to rebid something other than 2♠, okay. But give opener a few more HCP--say the Q of spades instead of the 9--now what?

 

Thanks!

[Finch]

Is a reverse bid by opener always forcing? Even over a 1NT reply?

Yes

 

If so, is a new suit bid by responder forcing  e.g. 1♦-1NT-2♠-3♣?

 

This is a very murky auction, which many accounts of 'standard' bidding do not cover. Traditionally 3C is not forcing here, but don't be surprised if some people think it is!

 

Does the following auction make any sense: 1♦-1NT-2♠?  with a 5-4 in diamonds and spades--that is, why bid a 4-card spade suit when responder can't possibly have 4 spades?

 

As a descriptive call, to show a strong unbalanced hand. Telling partner where your length and values are helps to evaluate the right contract. Your sample hand is a little unusual with the singleton heart honour; if we take a very pure example

 

AKxx

x

AKQxx

Jxx

 

you bid 2S over the 1NT response to help find the right strain. Partner might have

 

QJx

xxx

Jxx

Axxx

 

(where 6S has fair play, 4S is the right game and 3NT is virtually hopeless)

 

or partner might have

 

xxx

QJx

Jxx

Axxx

 

where the only game with any real play is 3NT.

 

Here's the hand I'm considering, how would you bid it?

 

dealer:

♠A972

♥K

♦AKQ95

♣J92

 

♠853

♥J97

♦62

♣KQ764

 

 

After 1D - 1NT - 2S responder has a very difficult call indeed.

I would probably give simple NON-FORCING preference to 3D and play there, preferring rather better clubs to bid 3C. This is clearly the wrong spot, but that's life.

 

If opener had a rather better hand (the SQ as well) the auction could go

 

1D - 1NT

2S - 3D

4C - 5C

 

as opener has a chance to show his shape: diamonds, spades and clubs in that order.

[sceptic]

Is a reverse bid by opener always forcing? Even over a 1NT reply?

 

Yes I believe so

 

If so, is a new suit bid by responder forcing e.g. 1♦-1NT-2♠-3♣?

 

If the 2 psdes sets a game force , then the answer is it is not passable

if the 2 spades is one round forcing, after a 1NT bid the 3 clubs must show weak clubs and is passable

 

Does the following auction make any sense: 1♦-1NT-2♠? with a 5-4 in diamonds and spades--that is, why bid a 4-card spade suit when responder can't possibly have 4 spades?

 

It makes sense to me shows strong unbaanced hand that is happy to play in diamonds or spades and gives ur partner the knowledge to make the decision that NT is the correct strain to play in

 

and I think the bidding for that hand is nice as far as I am concerned and I could see me bidding like that

 

I am no expert and this is just my opinion, there are some dam good experts here that will answer this post for you, and welcome to the forums, you will like your time here, there are some very nice people here

[Flame]

a reverse is one round force, but not GF yet. many uses a a response of 2NT to the reverse to show all weak hands making life eaiser when you have a good hand, playing such a system 3c or 3D or anything else at the 3 level will be GF.

[elwood913]

Thanks for the thorough comments.

One more question, though--

 

With the given hand:

♠A972

♥K

♦AKQ95

♣J92

 

After 1D - 1NT is it possible for opener to make some rebid other than 2S?...

 

Reasoning the HK and CJ are less than full value, and spotting no major fit and having no real indication NT will make a good contract can opener underbid a little and rebid 2D? Or is the hand too strong in high cards for such a week bid despite the possible problems?

 

Is 3D a possibility, or are the diamonds just not good enough (and/or the spades too good)?

 

And is it wrong to think that NT should look remote to opener, so too many NT games will be missed by not showing the spade length and strength?

 

Thanks again.

[Finch]

You could just raise to 2NT, on the basis that if the HK isn't working you aren't making anything; and if it is working 3NT is the most likely game.

 

I don't like a 3D rebid, which should have at least 6 diamonds.

[Walddk]

I agree with Frances on all aspects in her posts and would like to add that 2♦ is an underbid with a 17 count. Responder has 6-9 (perhaps even 10 flat) and will virtually always pass a 2♦ rebid where you might have a game on.

 

xxx

Qxx

Jxx

AQxx

 

3NT is laydown (barring a 5-0 diamond split with 5 offside = 2% risk) and 2♦ will be the contract. Take ♦J away and you would still want to be in game.

 

 

Roland

[pclayton]

You can play ingberman / structured reverses after a NF 1N too.

 

After 1♦ - 1N - 2♠, responder can use 2N as a puppet. In Hardy's Red 2/1 (might have been yellow) Book, Opener takes a 3♣ preference with at least a doubleton, rebids 3♦, with other minimums, can pattern with 3♥ or try 3N with a superstrong reverse.

[mikeh]

I agree with Frances's comments. I would add, however, that the 2♠ reverse may show either a powerful (one round force) hand with 4♠ and longer ♦ or a 5-6 type of hand: ie. 5♠ and longer ♦, in which case the high card strngth required for the bid diminishes but that loss is offset by the increased playing strength of the extreme two-suiter. Opener confirms the 5-6 hand by rebidding ♠ at his next turn.

 

This style is standard, altho you will find many players (including some experts such as Steve Robinson) who refuse to open a 6 or 7 card minor if they hold a 5 card major.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1) a reverse is forcing, even after a 1NT response

2) The meaning of the 3C bid by responder is unclear,

I would treat it as a bid showing max. values,

the weak hand with long clubs going through 2NT

3) An auction

1D - 1NT

2S - ...

makes sense.

For instance, opener holds 6-5, or he holds 5-4,

but is worried playing 3NT (in case he holds a 5-4-3-1)

distribution.

4) 1D - 1NT

2S - 2NT (1)

3C (2) - 3D (3)

 

(1) Lebensohl, Ingerbergman, ... (asking to bid opener 3C)

(2) Relais

(3) Preference

 

I think openers hand is a bit light, even oppossite

a max. responder, 3NT wont make very often,

due to the wide open mayor suits

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArcLight]

>I agree with Frances's comments. I would add, however, that the 2♠ reverse may show either a powerful (one round force) hand with 4♠ and longer ♦ or a 5-6 type of hand: ie. 5♠ and longer ♦, in which case the high card strngth required for the bid diminishes but that loss is offset by the increased playing strength of the extreme two-suiter. Opener confirms the 5-6 hand by rebidding ♠ at his next turn.

 

Mike,

Roughly how much weaker may a 6-5 hand be that a 5-4 to Reverese?

How many HCP or points or losers or whatever you use?

[mikeh]

>I agree with Frances's comments. I would add, however, that the 2♠ reverse may show either a powerful (one round force) hand with 4♠ and longer ♦ or a 5-6 type of hand: ie. 5♠ and longer ♦, in which case the high card strngth required for the bid diminishes but that loss is offset by the increased playing strength of the extreme two-suiter. Opener confirms the 5-6 hand by rebidding ♠ at his next turn.

 

Mike,

Roughly how much weaker may a 6-5 hand be that a 5-4 to Reverese?

How many HCP or points or losers or whatever you use?

AQxxx x KQJxxx x: I'd unhestitatingly reverse with this hand

 

KJ10xx x AQxxxx x: I'd open 1♠, hating every minute of the subsequent auction

 

So the line is somewhere inbetween: and suit texture, concentration of values and so on apply: as you may know, based on my posts decrying various simple 'rules', I view hand evaluation as a complex, subtle exercise and sometimes merely changing an 'x' to a 10 will change my call on an otherwise given hand.

[pclayton]

>I agree with Frances's comments. I would add, however, that the 2♠ reverse may show either a powerful (one round force) hand with 4♠ and longer ♦ or a 5-6 type of hand: ie. 5♠ and longer ♦, in which case the high card strngth required for the bid diminishes but that loss is offset by the increased playing strength of the extreme two-suiter. Opener confirms the 5-6 hand by rebidding ♠ at his next turn.

 

Mike,

Roughly how much weaker may a 6-5 hand be that a 5-4 to Reverese?

How many HCP or points or losers or whatever you use?

AQxxx x KQJxxx x: I'd unhestitatingly reverse with this hand

 

KJ10xx x AQxxxx x: I'd open 1♠, hating every minute of the subsequent auction

 

So the line is somewhere inbetween: and suit texture, concentration of values and so on apply: as you may know, based on my posts decrying various simple 'rules', I view hand evaluation as a complex, subtle exercise and sometimes merely changing an 'x' to a 10 will change my call on an otherwise given hand.

Another option with something like: Qxxxx, x, AKJxxx, x is to open 1♦ and rebid 2♦ over 1N.

[kenberg]

>I agree with Frances's comments. I would add, however, that the 2♠ reverse may show either a powerful (one round force) hand with 4♠ and longer ♦ or a 5-6 type of hand: ie. 5♠ and longer ♦, in which case the high card strngth required for the bid diminishes but that loss is offset by the increased playing strength of the extreme two-suiter. Opener confirms the 5-6 hand by rebidding ♠ at his next turn.

 

Mike,

Roughly how much weaker may a 6-5 hand be that a 5-4 to Reverese?

How many HCP or points or losers or whatever you use?

AQxxx x KQJxxx x: I'd unhestitatingly reverse with this hand

 

KJ10xx x AQxxxx x: I'd open 1♠, hating every minute of the subsequent auction

 

So the line is somewhere inbetween: and suit texture, concentration of values and so on apply: as you may know, based on my posts decrying various simple 'rules', I view hand evaluation as a complex, subtle exercise and sometimes merely changing an 'x' to a 10 will change my call on an otherwise given hand.

I watched a 6-5 hand such as the one you describe: 1D-3NT (balanced, 13-15). You bid 4S? The actual hand I saw had stronger diamonds, weaker spades (say five to the Jack). Still 4S?

 

It is, of course, one of the many easons not to play 3N over 1m as a balanced 13-15. Still, many do. Suppose you are one of them.