How to bid this one?

[awm]

Anyone have a good auction for this pair of hands (using any system/methods you prefer):

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sj5hat86dk842cqjt&s=sakq86hq4dajt765c]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Assume that it's matchpoints in a strong field. Opponents are not bidding.

[pbleighton]

1C(16+)-1NT-2D-3D-3S-4H-6D

 

Peter

[hrothgar]

I haven't found a convincing MOSCITO auction that lets me safely ask for the Jack of Spades. I can produce an auction to 7♦, but I can't justify it single dummy...

[Wiste1]

1♣(16+) - 1NT(11-13)

2♦(5+♦) - 3♦(support)

3♠(4+♠) - 3NT(natural)

4♦ - 4♥(cue)

5♣(exlus.) - 5♠((2kc-no Q)

5NT(grand-try) - 6♦(nothing more to show)

[Echognome]

Nope. No good way to reach grand. In echo club we reach the small slam. Furthermore, South would have a tough time between distinguishing the actual hand and xx Kxxx Kxxx Kxx or even xx Kxxx Qxxx Axx. Systemically we cannot ask for the J in a suit of Jx (as we only scan doubletons once). Tough hand.

 

Anyway, the echo club auction is:

 

1♣(1) - 1NT(2) [(1)16+ any, (2)positive balanced]

2♣® - 2♦(3) [(3)44 reds or blacks or 4333 with a major]

2♥® - 2NT(4) [(4)2=4=4=3 exactly]

3♦(5) - 3♠(6) [(5)control ask, (6)3 controls]

4♣(7) - 4NT(8) [(7)scanning, (8)♥,♦, and ♣ A,K, or Q, but no ♠A,K, or Q]

6♦

 

The shame about the hand is that with two control cards, we start showing Qs in our 2nd suit. It often works great for efficiency, but makes this hand very difficult. If North had not shown a club honour, it would make finding 7♦ a little more realistic.

[HeartA]

1D - 1H

2S - 3D

4D - 4H

5C - 5D

6/7D

[the hog]

J5

AT86

K842

QJT

 

AKQ86

Q4

AJT765

Using old style Moscito

1C 1N

2C 2D

2H 2S

2N 3C

3D 3S Shows 2443 shape with 6AKQ controls

4C 4D Something in H, D, C, not S

5C 5D No second hon H

5H 5S No second hon D

5N 6C No second hon C

6D 6S J of S, no J of H

 

As you can see, this has to bypass the potentailly safe haven of 6D to play in a problematical 6S if J of S is not shown.

[ulven]

In my own relay system this is a trivial hand because I've reserved an initial 1H-response for all balanced hands and then goes into reversed relays where strong hand reveals his hand instead (using the same scheme).

 

Lacking that possibility it's hard to see how to bid this grand.

 

/Ulf

[Gerben42]

My Fantunes system:

 

1♦ (13+ unbalanced)

- 1♠ (4+♥)

3♠ (Limited, 6 - 5)

- 4♦ (Slam interest)

4♠ (No ♥ control)

- 4NT (RKC)

6♣ (2 + useful void)

- 6♠ (If you have no ♥ control your ♠ must be good enough for 6♠)

Pass

[MickyB]

If you have already shown 5S6D and no heart control, is it really necessary to jump over 4N to show your void? :)

 

I feel like I should be able to get there with detailed enough agreements...it will start

 

1♦:1♥

1♠:3♦

3♠:4♦

4♠:4N

5♣:5♦

 

3♠ shows 5-6, 4♦ shows good trumps (if they were only Kxx responder would have cued 4♥), no club control and denies 3♠, 4♠ cue denies A/K♥ but could still have shortage, 4N shows an even number of keycards, 5♦ is an attempt to play due to not having much more to show. There's now rather a lot of room, but 5NT (normally denying the trump queen) isn't defined on this auction. There's probably a case for responder to cue his jack of spades now on the basis that K♦, A♥, Q♠ would be a huge hand on this auction and could just take control...I'm not sure if this auction is technically achievable or not, but I'm certain we wouldn't be confident enough to pull it off!

[Gerben42]

If you have already shown 5S6D and no heart control, is it really necessary to jump over 4N to show your void?

 

Probably not but this is not a well-agreed part of the system.

[Free]

I think I get there with my (and Gert's) fantunes system:

1♦ - 2♣! (14+, 4+♦, unbal - GF bal / ♣ / ♦ support)

3♠ - 4♦ (5♠ & 6♦ - sets ♦)

4♥! - 4NT! (even nr of keycards - ♥ cue)

6♣! - 7♦ (void ♣ - joy)

 

I'm not sure if we'd understand the 6♣ bid, should double check. Since 5♣ would be cue, 6♣ 'should' show a hand like this.

[zasanya]

System Power Precision

1♣=16+ 1nt=9-14 balanced

2♦=natural and asking bid 2NT=Qxx or better ♦ less than 4 controls

3♠=natural 3NT=natural (stoppers)

4♣=cue 4♥=cue

4♠=cue 5♦=sign off

6♦

[Finch]

Playing natural methods the start is easy, there's just one rather dodgy bit at the end...

 

 

1D 1H

1S 3D

3S 4H (cue)

4S (cue) 5D

 

5D is encouraging (4NT would be discouraging)

Opener knows there is no A or K of clubs opposite yet partner is prepared to encourage looking for a slam so must have nice non-club cards. That's enough for opener to bid

 

5NT (grand slam force)

 

now responder needs to decide Kxxx is worth 2 top diamond honours and bid a grand.... you might do knowing partner is 6-5 (from the 3S rebid) so it's a 10 card diamond fit.

[inquiry]

I had planned on not talking about misiry for a bit longer, but since this hand calls for it and is posted to non-natural systems, I guess I will drag it out again... . no one but misho and I and hannie and I play this..so this is of limited value. In the first case, we will not bump to 4♥ (which we would at the table)

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sj5hat86dk842cqjt&s=sakq86hq4dajt765c]133|200|Scoring: MP

3♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4NT - 5♣

5NT - 7♦

[/hv]

 

3♦ = either a normal preempt in hearts, or a strong two suiter with diamonds and a black suit. This is the strong variety

 

3♥ = pass/correct

 

3♠ = spade/diamond two suiter, 4 losers

 

4♣ = denial cue-bid, denies club control neurtal on heart control

 

4NT = I have ♣ under control (if I had two quick losers in clubs, I would bid 4♦, I need any ♥ cover (ace or king) (if I didn't need a heart control I would also have bid 4♦ = YOU WOULD COUNT you covers and bid slam if you had three outside of hearts and clubs anyway), if I only needed the heart ace, I would have bid 4♥. If I held both of my anchor queens and either type heart control was working, I would have rebid 4♠ (higher anchor suit). Thus for 4NT, I am missing ♦Q and either heart control works. So responder knows 3 of the 4 losers (KQ of D, A of hearts). If opener has xx or Kxx of hearts, there would be fourth cover here.

 

5♣ = asking if non0materail king of hearts is a cover (a non-material cue-bid) Why does five club ask about hearts? Opener showed any heart cover will do, so must have at least two hearts, thus at most one club. Why is this a non-material heart king? Responder with the heart king, would know it was working, but he might not know, for instance, if he held a singleton heart or a hand like this where his hearts can be pitched are working. Opener would bid 5♦ if the non-material heart king was not working.

 

5♥ = yes, king of hearts is also a cover, extra legnth in diamonds (6♦ would be yes, non-material king of hearts working, but no extra legnth, 5♠ would be yes, extra legnth in spades.

 

7♦ ok.. you are 5-2-6-0 with AKQ of spades, xx of hearts, and Axxxxx of diamonds, I don't know about the diamond jack, but we do have 10 of them.

 

At the table, however, after a VULNERABLE 3♦, north would bid 4♥. The bidding is cramped then. The bidding would be...

 

3♦ - 4♥

4♠ - 4NT

5♣ - 5♥

5♠ - 5NT

6♦ - 7♦

 

4♥ = raising the heart preempt to game

4♠ = spade/diamond two suiter, 3 or 4 losers

4NT = shows heart king!!!

5♣ = heart king working, I am missing one anchor suit queen (unknown which)

5♥ = which queen is missing?

5♠ = queen of diamonds (cheaper, this is a paradox bid)

5NT = bid your longest suit, or lacking that, bid your better suit. Better is defined here as suit wtih the JACK, so AJxxx is "better" than AKQxx, since responder should know about the ACES and KINGS

6♦ = I have either six diamonds, or five diamonds to the jack

7♦ = not as sure as last auction...

 

Over 6♦ you are in position to quess here. Not sure if yo uwant to guess seven, but you might. Here, opener has announced, 1) need for heart king, missing diamond Queen. So we know all four of his losers.. xx in hearts (since we have the ACE) and the KQ of diamonds. At worse he is AKQxx xx AJxxx A, he could also hold AKQxx xx AJxxxx void, and AKQxx xx Axxxxx void. There just isn't enough room to find out for certain about the extra legnth.

[Walddk]

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2NT

3♠ - 4♦

4♠ - 4NT

5♥ - 5NT

7♦ - pass

 

It doesn't look too difficult even if you don't play a strong club relay system.

 

3♠ = 5-6 in spades and diamonds.

4♠ = cue bid, no heart cue bid, so my shape is known to be 5-2-6-0.

5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♦Q.

5N = grand slam try.

7♦ = my spades are plenty good to provide the pitches we need.

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2NT

3♠ - 4♦

4♠ - 4NT

5♥ - 5NT

7♦ - pass

 

It doesn't look too difficult even if you don't play a strong club relay system.

 

3♠ = 5-6 in spades and diamonds.

4♠ = cue bid, no heart cue bid, so my shape is known to be 5-2-6-0.

5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♦Q.

5N = grand slam try.

7♦ = my spades are plenty good to provide the pitches we need.

 

Roland

I think that the relay players are being a bit more honest about their auction (I'll note that the relay partnerships, by and large AREN'T finding the grand because the hand with the Jack of Spades is showing rather than asking)

 

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

 

♠ 65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ84

♣ QJT

 

Alternatively, give North

 

♠ J65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ9

♣ QJT

 

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

[Walddk]

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2NT

3♠ - 4♦

4♠ - 4NT

5♥ - 5NT

7♦ - pass

 

It doesn't look too difficult even if you don't play a strong club relay system.

 

3♠ = 5-6 in spades and diamonds.

4♠ = cue bid, no heart cue bid, so my shape is known to be 5-2-6-0.

5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♦Q.

5N = grand slam try.

7♦ = my spades are plenty good to provide the pitches we need.

 

Roland

I think that the relay players are being a bit more honest about their auction (I'll note that the relay partnerships, by and large AREN'T finding the grand)

 

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

 

♠ 65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ84

♣ QJT

 

Alternatively, give North

 

♠ J65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ8

♣ QJT

 

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

Yes, I believe so..

 

1. I will find it because responder has *four* trumps and can count 13 tricks if opener's spades are good enough.

 

2. I will settle for a small slam because responder has *three* trumps and three spades. Now he knows that opener doesn't have enough to cover all 3 heart losers.

 

The 4th trump in your example 1 and in Adam's example hand combined with 2 and 3 spades respectively makes all the difference.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

 

♠ 65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ84

♣ QJT

 

Alternatively, give North

 

♠ J65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ9

♣ QJT

 

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

I know you think only the strong hand should relay, but not all systems are built that way. I acutally think a strong two suiter that fits within certain ranges, either hand can ask/show effectively. I am also not sure if you included my misiry auctions into "relayers" group, ... but the answer is I can bid both these new hand just fine. However, I don't bid grand on either of them opposite the given opener hand...I am surprised you think you should bid one of them...

 

On both hands, opener will show a second round heart control is needed and the diamond queen is missing, so the four losers are known.. Heart xx, D-KQ, so responder will know about the AKQxx of spades.On the first hand, responder can ask about the spade JACK, via the 5NT bid on some auctions (bid longer suit or best suit.. best suit defined as suit with the jack... if opener, after showing six diamond will not bid 6S unless he has the spade jack... so with

 

xx

ATxx

KQxx

QJX

 

You can trott out 5NT and if partner bids 6S, correct to 7D, otherwise, you are forced to pass since 7D since playing for 3-3 spades is too big a gamble.

 

On the second hand, with

Jxx

ATxx

KQx

xxx

 

You know you have ony two pitches on the long spades, so you have no way to cover partners second heart loser. Os you would stop, probably in 6S instead of 6D especially at mp. Seems like it is you who are in trouble on the second one if you bid the grand ... 6D, 5S and 1H is not enough...

[hrothgar]

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

 

♠ 65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ84

♣ QJT

 

Alternatively, give North

 

♠ J65

♥ AT86

♦ KQ9

♣ QJT

 

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

I know you think only the strong hand should relay, but not all systems are built that way. I acutally think a strong two suiter that fits within certain ranges, either hand can ask/show effectively. I am also not sure if you included my misiry auctions into "relayers" group, ... but the answer is I can bid both these new hand just fine. However, I don't bid grand on either of them opposite the given opener hand...I am surprised you think you should bid one of them...

I should have been more clear in my original posting:

 

The "first" hand - the good grand was the one originally posted.

 

I consider both hands that I posted to be problematic and would not want to play a grand with either.

[awm]

I thought this board was interesting because many relay systems will not find the grand slam. The main issue is that the ♠J is a huge card. If the strong hand is doing the asking, you're unlikely to be able to relay out the jacks in time to stop in 6♦ if the ♠J was a small card.

 

Of course, reaching 6♦ is relatively easy in most methods.

 

I'm not particularly convinced by Roland's auction to the grand, because it's not clear to me how the bidding would be any different if north held two small spades instead of jack-doubleton (okay perhaps xx ATxx Kxxx QJT is not enough for a 2NT rebid, but you can add the diamond queen or change the club queen to the king). Certainly the south hand will bid the same way, and north will probably bid keycard, and has to bid 5NT to confirm all the relevent keycards... and south will be looking at the same spade suit...

 

Free's Fantoni-Nunes auction seems to have similar issues. Yes, you can certainly reach a grand in natural methods by just "taking the plunge" but I've yet to be convinced that the same plunge won't reach an awful grand off the spade jack.

 

Inquiry's auction relies on responder not raising what's usually a 3♥ preempt to the game level holding four-card support and short spades. In this case there's plenty of space for north to do the asking and correctly evaluate the spade jack. But it's unclear to me how well this would work in practice, first because north probably would bump to 4♥ (the auction after the 4♥ bump is not very convincing) and second because the inferences from the DCB sequences over these misiry openings seem very complex and it's not clear to me how often people will get them right at the table (the hands I've kibbed seem to involve a lot of misiry accidents).

 

My auction on the actual hand is nothing to be proud of (I was a substitute in a club game, playing with a weak partner and few agreements) but I thought it'd be an interesting one to discuss. Certainly it'd be nice to have a relay structure where the balanced hand often does the asking. Sam Ieong and I do in fact play such a structure and would have an easy auction to the grand slam, but in my other partnerships (even those where I play relays) I can't see a clear route to the grand.

[kenrexford]

This is a very difficult hand for my methods.

 

Not even the start is easy. Some would advocate opening 1♠ (see, e.g., Washington Standard). But, I think I avoid a world of initial problems by starting 1♦. These auctions on 6-5 minor longer are terrible!

 

In any event, after a 1♥ response (what else?), I cannot understand a mere 1♠. The Qx of hearts is of enhanced value now, and I do have a four-lser hand, at worst. So, I jump shift to 2♠. I am willing to commit to game.

 

As I play that 2NT would be Lebensohl, Responder can instead bid 3♦, showing GF and a diamond fit.

 

This yields problem #2. What is 3♠ by opener? Pattern completion? I suppose so.

 

Back to Responder. This is not clear-cut what to do next. 3NT seems logical, if only to stress the poor honor contribution internally to Opener's suits. The fourth diamond is huge, but there is a severe lack of shape. I imaging a real aution involving a 3NT call here.

 

Assuming this, a strange new call comes to mind. Normally, I use a jump above game into a new suit as either exclusion or a strange RKCB call, refocusing the lesser key cards to the King and Queen of the side suit. 5♣ after 3NT would sound like Exclusion. But, it is below game, technically, and seems better used as a telling bid rather than an asking bid, especially with diamonds as trumps. The telling bid I use here is a special Picture Jump, explained below.

 

Thus, 5♣ after 3NT should clarify the hand:

 

(1) 6-5 pattern (already shown)

(2) No heart control (neither honor nor shortness -- hence, QJ tight at best)

(3) shortness is clubs (per force, a void)

(4) three of the top four spade honors (conveniently known by Responder to be A-K-Q)

(5) good trumps (normally, two of the top three honors, but this is a picnhed auction -- a sixth diamond with J10 and the Ace might justify a fudge)

 

This causes Responder to expect AKQxx-xx-AQxxxx-void. We get lucky, probably, on the diamond fib.

 

The alternative is a simple 4♣ cue, which may be less double dummy (or, less practical). But, this option provides little clue as to what to do next.

 

Thus, I like 5♣, as not so contrived. I'd rather make a slight fib and tell a whole lot about the hand than bid a futile 4♣ and expect partner to work out the rest...

[inquiry]

But it's unclear to me how well this would work in practice, first because north probably would bump to 4♥ (the auction after the 4♥ bump is not very convincing) and second because the inferences from the DCB sequences over these misiry openings seem very complex and it's not clear to me how often people will get them right at the table (the hands I've kibbed seem to involve a lot of misiry accidents).

Sadly the biggest (and far away most common) misiry accidents I have had is the stupidest one.. where one player or the other totally forgets they are playing it and opens 3C with a club preempt. If you get the first bid right, the other bids are much easier.

 

It is not always that true that the bid is "usually" a preempt in hearts. In fourth seat, it is usually a strong hand. When Vulnerable versus not, the strong hand is also more often (assuming you play very disicplined preempts at those condidions). Not vul versus vul, it is of course, much more lilkely to be the weak variety. Both vul it depends upon preempting style.Also, there are hands where you know your partners bid is strong.... after pass-pass-BID and you are very weak or you have too many cards in the suggested preempt suit for it to be a preempt (I had eight once in a goulash thingee).

 

The Denial cue-bids are actually painful on some hand for a different reason. It tells your opponents what to lead when both of you lack a stopper. This is a nnon-trivial problem at matchpoints where the opening lead can mean a difference between a top and a bottom. And I have seen a blast to slam hands where the slam would make without this knolwedge.

 

On the other hand, these bids can help avoid disasters as well. There are some nice things you can do, should you desire, to probe the location of legnth and stregnth. But it is true that the auction becomes cramped on the jump raises of the alleged preempt. It does not hurt with the two hands richard added, since in both cases, you discover the heart problem in plenty of time. But with your hand, the simple idea of the sixth diamond versus the 5th becomes a prooblem.

 

On this hand, in addition to the 5NT bid asking for better suit, you have room for a reverse josephine bid if 6C. Since you already know partner is missign diamond Queen, this is not asking for grand when that card is held. However, I don't have any notes on this bid being looking for extra legnth in diamonds. But since, we already know opener has two hearts (at least), 6C has to be one of two things... is the thrid round control of hearts useful? Or do you have extra legnth in diamonds. These seem the only two questions that respnder would need to have answered, but there are no firm rules on which should take precedent here. I do have this bid as asking for "non-material" club king (abiliyty to ruff club after pulling trump and running trumps) when opener asked for specifically ACE in the other suit (that is after denying a club control). In this case, we know a non-material club control is of no vailue as opener can only have one club. But on this auction it is undefined if I recall correctly.

[mikeh]

I find any natural auction involving a 1♠ rebid unconvincing. I could see it if opener were 5=0=6=2, but with the actual hand, I'm forcing to game opposite even one of my 1♥ responses.

 

That actually helps North picture the situation a little better, altho probably not by enough.

 

1♦ 1♥

2♠ 3♦ shows values; would bid 2N to slow down

3♠ 4♦

5♣ 5♥

5♠ ?

 

On this auction, North might take the leap. After all, he knows about the 10 card fit, and he knows that South has a big hand. Give S AKxxx x Axxxxx A, which is consistent with the auction, and 7 is good. Or give him his actual hand. And the 5♠ bid should be at least AKxxx.... I don't think that AKxxx xx AQJxxx void is good enough but AKxxx Qx AQJxxx void might be, so the final guess is still a guess.

 

I think that this sequence is consistent with more hands that would make grand good than otherwise, but the grand/slam decision requires a substantial preponderance, not merely a majority.

 

However, at least the 2♠ bid gets North able to start picturing hands where grand may make. Would I really bid it as North on my auction? That would depend on who I am playing and the state of the match/event....

[akhare]

We can find 7♦ if the unbalanced hand decides to do a reverse relay.

 

However, my guess is that after the auction,

 

P (14+) - 1♣ (GF)

2♦ (reverse relay, 5+!S and 4+ ♦)

 

responder might take a view and bid 3N in the hopes of concealing information from the opps (it's MPs after all).

 

Failing that, we will likely stop in 6♦ after discovering that we are missing K♥ and Q♦.