simple question

[Flame]

(1♣) D (p) 2♥

(P) 2nt

 

what does 2nt show ?

[Echognome]

Good 18 to bad 21 bal for me.

[Flame]

im thinking since its 18+ then it should be forcing.

Now since its forcing maybe it better be unlimited so we can find 5-3 heart fits or any other fit for game/slam perposes.

[blackshoe]

You have 18 (or more, sure, but you might have just 18) points. your partner's jump to 2 ♥ shows 9-11, and at least 4 ♥. Of course 2NT is forcing. But unlimited? What do you think 3NT (instead of 2NT) by you should show?

 

Put it another way - if 2NT is unlimited, then advancer needs to keep slam in mind. If 2NT is limited, he doesn't. Which situation would you rather be in?

[whereagles]

17-21 would bid 3NT. This is more like 15-16 with take-out dbl shape (hence no 1NT overcall).

 

For example:

 

KQxx

Axx

Kxxx

Ax

[Flame]

You have 18 (or more, sure, but you might have just 18) points. your partner's jump to 2 ♥ shows 9-11, and at least 4 ♥. Of course 2NT is forcing. But unlimited? What do you think 3NT (instead of 2NT) by you should show?

 

Put it another way - if 2NT is unlimited, then advancer needs to keep slam in mind. If 2NT is limited, he doesn't. Which situation would you rather be in?

Do you understand the benefits of bidding 2NT opposite to 3NT ?

And about the 15-16 bal, anyone else think it should be this way ?

[blackshoe]

Do you understand the benefits of bidding 2NT opposite to 3NT ?

Of course. So?

 

You didn't answer my question. Given that you play 2NT as 18-21 or thereabouts, what does 3NT show?

[Finch]

17-21 would bid 3NT. This is more like 15-16 with take-out dbl shape (hence no 1NT overcall).

 

For example:

 

KQxx

Axx

Kxxx

Ax

That looks like a 3C bid to me.

That club holding screams out for partner to declare NT, or possibly for us to play in a 4-3 major suit fit. If you bid 3C, partner can happily bid 3NT holding Qxx in clubs or similar.

 

I agree that it's still a hand too good for a 1NT overcall.

 

As 2H was a limit bid, 3NT sounds like a hand that wants to play in 3NT opposite 5 hearts and is expecting partner to pass. 2NT, while I agree it should be forcing, is more interested in alternative strains.

[kenrexford]

Add one more for semi-balanced, 15-16, three hearts.

[kgr]

Do you understand the benefits of bidding 2NT opposite to 3NT ?

Of course. So?

 

You didn't answer my question. Given that you play 2NT as 18-21 or thereabouts, what does 3NT show?

I wonder how experts play this. Normally DBL followed by bidding NT at lowest possible level shows 18-19 HCP.

But I'm not sure that this is also true after the jump of your partner.

I would say:

(1C)-DBL-2H-2NT: AQxx-xx-AKxx-AQx (GF in my opinion)

(1C)-DBL-2H-2NT: AQxx-x-AKQxxx-Kx (source of tricks in minor)

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Put it another way - if 2NT is unlimited, then advancer needs to keep slam in mind. If 2NT is limited, he doesn't. Which situation would you rather be in?

<snip>

Hi,

 

although slam may still be an option,

slam is unlikely, they did open, and

unless the opening bid was a psych,

our side has at most 30HCP.

In other words, it does not really

matter how limited 2NT is, since.

you need great fits to compensate

for the lack ot HCP.

 

2NT is forcing, but gives partner the

chance to tell more about his hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenberg]

I don't know what it shows but if I had four hearts I would raise to 3NT and if I had five hearts I would rebid hearts. If by any chance I had six hearts I would rebid 4H. My strength is pretty sharply limited (2H was passable) so it seems I'll now try to explain about my heart length. If partner knows how many hearts I have and what my strength is, he should be able to proceed sensibly.

 

If I am to guess what it shows, my guess is that he has a hand where he would have bid 1NT had I responded 1H. That is, he has a hand too strong for a 1NT overcall. But if I'm not right, it doesn't matter since it seems my course is clear whatever he has.

[awm]

Natural and game forcing. Denies holding 4♥.

 

I don't think this necessarily shows a hand that would've rebid 1NT after the double and a one-level response (that would be 19-21 or thereabouts). Of course, if I did hold that hand I would also bid this way. It's just a way of establishing a force and showing doubler's general hand type.

 

So something like 15+ hcp, balanced or semi-balanced, stopper in opener's suit.

[mikeh]

Forcing to game, and for me the 2♥ shows a good 8+, hence to gf, doubler needs a prime 16+, and denies 4♥ and promises positional ♣ stoppers: hence not worried about wrong-siding notrump. Classically prime 18+: maybe AJxx KJx Kxxx AQ. I suppose it could be great 16-17, but I could not construct such a hand in the minute or two I spent worrying about it. All such (obvious) constructions seemed to call for a 1N overcalll.

[HeartA]

17-21 would bid 3NT. This is more like 15-16 with take-out dbl shape (hence no 1NT overcall).

 

For example:

 

KQxx

Axx

Kxxx

Ax

I would bid a direct 1NT holding

KQxx

Axx

Kxxx

Ax.

 

I agree that it has the original meeting of 1NT if pd bid 1X. That is, it shows 18-20(or bad 21) HCP with balanced hand, as some others mentioned here.

[Al_U_Card]

A conundrum but not illogical. Responder has shown 8 (with a 5 card suit) to 11 hcp with 4+ H. Pard did not overcall 1NT 15-18 with C stopped but now he appears to be showing a balanced hand without H but with C. ( Why double and not bid NT? )

 

I believe the double must be showing a moderate take-out double with 3 H (hence the use of the double) and a "wasted" value in C (Qx). Thus, the hand shown is 4342 and since he is asking:

 

depending on the responder's C holdings for H or NT play;

 

if the hand is 8 with 5H (bid 3H)

if the hand is 9 with 4H (pass)

 

etc.

 

This leads me to believe that the doubler as well as having 4342 has from 14-16 hcp and downgraded his hand for the original NT overcall.

[Al_U_Card]

Now, if doubler rebid 3C, over the 2H response, is he looking for a C stopper or is he showing the GF hand that may or may not have H, or...?

[Flame]

Thanks for the answers, i think that most agree it should be GF unlimited, which is much more flexiable then jumping to 3NT with more pnts. no need to tell partner what we have when we know what he got and its better one side know alot then both sides know little. as for the 15-16 it might be usfull but i wouldnt spend a bid for a specific hand.

[Al_U_Card]

Thanks for the answers, i think that most agree it should be GF unlimited, which is much more flexiable then jumping to 3NT with more pnts. no need to tell partner what we have when we know what he got and its better one side know alot then both sides know little. as for the 15-16 it might be usfull but i wouldnt spend a bid for a specific hand.

Interesting interpretation of what most agree on......although this is what you seem to think that it should be.....and those that feel it is forcing.....are likely right but any agreement is better than no agreement and as for showing one type of hand with one bid.....its an interesting concept and is actually quite common...lol

[Flame]

Thanks for the answers, i think that most agree it should be GF unlimited, which is much more flexiable then jumping to 3NT with more pnts. no need to tell partner what we have when we know what he got and its better one side know alot then both sides know little. as for the 15-16 it might be usfull but i wouldnt spend a bid for a specific hand.

Interesting interpretation of what most agree on......although this is what you seem to think that it should be.....and those that feel it is forcing.....are likely right but any agreement is better than no agreement and as for showing one type of hand with one bid.....its an interesting concept and is actually quite common...lol

The problem with your approach is that you want to have 2 ways to show 15-18 bal. Again this has a benefit, but normal bridge logic doesnt do this, for example most players with 5332 15-17 that doesnt have NT oriented honors structure still open 1NT because the system doesnt allow them to show this hand later if they open the 5 cards suit. I cant say your way isnt better.

[Al_U_Card]

By you, do you want to mean me? I have one way to show 15-18 with stopper(s) ie 1NT and one way to show 15-18 without stopper ie Dbl. What I do with the continuation depends on the response, the state of the auction and the nature of my hand. I am afraid that I don't follow your statement regarding the relevence of the 5 card suit within a NT philosophy as it is a non sequitor for me....

[Finch]

Now, if doubler rebid 3C, over the 2H response, is he looking for a C stopper or is he showing the GF hand that may or may not have H, or...?

1C x P 2H P

?

 

If I double on a hand that is planning to bid a new suit over partner's minimum response to a double (e.g. 1C x P 1H P 2D) then, traditionally, I have significant extra values (originally this would have been virtually any 16+ but the more recent trend towards strong overcalls has put the limit higher).

 

So if I have enough to double and bid a new suit, then over a jump response from partner a new suit has to be forcing; there is no need to cue bid.

 

That leaves the cue bid after a jump response to be one of two hand types:

 

1. Extra values, no primary suit, no primary heart fit (a typical hand might be a 4=3=4=2 16-count).

 

2. Primary heart support and slam interest.

 

The second of these is actually pretty rare and can usually look after itself. It's rare, not only because slam interest opposite a 2H bid is unusual, but in particular slam interest that doesn't want to splinter or use Blackwood is even more unusual. Either way responder doesn't have to worry about it as it will become clear next round.

[kenberg]

Now, if doubler rebid 3C, over the 2H response, is he looking for a C stopper or is he showing the GF hand that may or may not have H, or...?

1C x P 2H P

?

 

If I double on a hand that is planning to bid a new suit over partner's minimum response to a double (e.g. 1C x P 1H P 2D) then, traditionally, I have significant extra values (originally this would have been virtually any 16+ but the more recent trend towards strong overcalls has put the limit higher).

 

So if I have enough to double and bid a new suit, then over a jump response from partner a new suit has to be forcing; there is no need to cue bid.

 

That leaves the cue bid after a jump response to be one of two hand types:

 

1. Extra values, no primary suit, no primary heart fit (a typical hand might be a 4=3=4=2 16-count).

 

2. Primary heart support and slam interest.

 

The second of these is actually pretty rare and can usually look after itself. It's rare, not only because slam interest opposite a 2H bid is unusual, but in particular slam interest that doesn't want to splinter or use Blackwood is even more unusual. Either way responder doesn't have to worry about it as it will become clear next round.

This makes sense and, importantly for rare auctions, is consistent with the originally posted rare auction:

 

X-2H-2N: We have enough for game but I am not sure where.

X-2H-3C: We have enough for game but I am not sure where.

 

The first shows club controls, the second doesn't. Or so I understand your comments.

[joshs]

There really are two different ways of playing it:

a. a limit bid 15-16ish with a stopper (INV opposite partner's Good8- bad 11)

b. 15+ with a stopper, Forcing. This is a hand that might prefer to play in a suit (although not necisarily's partner's suit), but does have a stopper. Its terrible to have to jump to 3N with just a single stopper and takeout x shape (say 4342). The jump should be reserved for a 19 count, with little interest in playing in a suit, that just had to x the first time since was too good for 1N.

 

I am firmly in the b camp on general principles: I.E. Asking partner's opinion for a strain, and then over-ruling:

1. shows extras

2. is forcing if partner showed values

[awm]

While I mostly agree with Josh, I'd like to add another point for discussion:

 

(1) If partner's bid did not show values (basically it was forced by the double), then bidding a different strain shows substantial extras. Normally this is 19+ points, or a bit lighter with a shapely hand. It does not imply support for the suit partner named. This bid is not forcing but very forward-going (a jump change of strain would be GF).

 

(2) If partner's bid showed values (for example partner jumped, or made a free bid after opponents raised) then a change of strain is forcing to game. However, this does not necessarily promise 19+ or equivalent. If partner showed 8-11 or thereabouts via a jump, then a good 16 is sufficient. Of course, if doubler doesn't have 19+ then he should have some sort of tolerance for partner's suit (otherwise what did he plan to do if partner bid the suit without guaranteeing values?).